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Mullin podcast interview 1 week 5 days ago #439113

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Jack Williams post=439110 wrote:

SJUFAN2 post=439077 wrote:

AlexSTJ post=439073

19854ever post=439071 wrote: I’ll stand by my opinion that Norm was the worst coach in the history of the program. Mullin’s best season his last much better than Norms 2 seasons above .500, attendance also was much better under Chris than Norm. Both coaches were left with empty cupboards when hired.

Both did not do a great job, I disagree that Norm did better with less. Steve Lavin had a solid year his first season with Norms players got them to the NCAAS was runner up for Big East coach of the year. Norm flat out was an awful in game coach, did he work harder recruiting than Chris probably but end of the day his losing % is worse than Chris.

You are what your record says you are.

Mullin beat a few more cupcakes during the early season. Wow. Attendance? Come on.

Robert's Conference winning % - .314. Against HOFs Calhoun, Wright, Huggins, Boeheim, Pitino. Can't forget JT3, Dixon, Brey, Cronin. 

Mullin's Conference winning % - .278 against a much weaker conference except Wright and Nova, with better players recruited by Matt A. 

Mullin got lucky he had bright, young talent like St. Jean and Matt's recruiting. What's the most memorable thing the 2 Hall of Famers did together while on SJU's payroll? Play a round of Horse with Bill Walton, in Hawaii. I rest my case.

Norm didn't miss any recruit visits to go bike riding with Walton either.  

I suppose that we can split hairs over whose winning% was worse in conf, out of conf, etc, etc  until the cows come home and never get anywhere.  
Bottom line is that Norm took over this program at its lowest point since its inception and cleaned it up.   The team he left to Lavin won 21 games in Lavin's first year.  
Mullin took over a team that had just been to the NCAA tournament and delivered Norm like results for 4 seasons.  
One of these is not like the other.  So much so that it should be clear even to those who cannot separate Mullin the HOF player from Mullin the worst coach in school history.


 

How do you go from crediting Norm for leaving Lavin a good roster and then immediately switch over to saying "Mullin took over a team that had just been to an NCAA tournament" 

What of that NCAA tournament was left for Mullin? Let's be fair here... 

You clearly know leaving a good roster for the next coach is important because you credit Norm for doing it... but when it comes to what Lavin left Mullin, we just ignore it?

Mullin wasn't a good coach but thats still not fair 

You missed the point.    Its not about what roster they inherited, they both inherited an empty cupboard. 
Its about the state of the program they inherited and where they left it when they were done.   
Mullin inherited a team that was relevant again (Thanks to the work Lavin and Norm had done) and did nothing with it.
Norm inherited a team/program that was a laughingstock, an embarrassment, and barely an after thought for any local players of note.  He turned over that full roster to Lavin who took them to the dance.  Not saying Norm would have gotten them there but he clrealy advanced the ball in his time here.  Mullin didn't.  
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Mullin podcast interview 1 week 4 days ago #439188

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I would also add to SJUFAN's comments that Norm's program was placed on NCAA probation in November of Norm's first season at St. John's which was certainly a hinderance his recruiting.

It was reported that prior to his hiring Norm asked "Suits" whether there was any chance of NCAA infractions and "Suits" told him that the matters had been resolved.  Had Norm known of the looming NCAA probation he may not have take the job.

In my opinion Norm should be remembered as a good man who was the wrong hire.  Recall that Suits Harrington ran the selection process.  Why Suits would hire a young assistant coach with no D! head coaching experience to take over the scandal ridden program is less a reflection on Norm than on him.

 
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Mullin podcast interview 1 week 4 days ago #439191

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SJUFAN2 post=439113 wrote:

Jack Williams post=439110 wrote:

SJUFAN2 post=439077 wrote:

AlexSTJ post=439073

19854ever post=439071 wrote: I’ll stand by my opinion that Norm was the worst coach in the history of the program. Mullin’s best season his last much better than Norms 2 seasons above .500, attendance also was much better under Chris than Norm. Both coaches were left with empty cupboards when hired.

Both did not do a great job, I disagree that Norm did better with less. Steve Lavin had a solid year his first season with Norms players got them to the NCAAS was runner up for Big East coach of the year. Norm flat out was an awful in game coach, did he work harder recruiting than Chris probably but end of the day his losing % is worse than Chris.

You are what your record says you are.

Mullin beat a few more cupcakes during the early season. Wow. Attendance? Come on.

Robert's Conference winning % - .314. Against HOFs Calhoun, Wright, Huggins, Boeheim, Pitino. Can't forget JT3, Dixon, Brey, Cronin. 

Mullin's Conference winning % - .278 against a much weaker conference except Wright and Nova, with better players recruited by Matt A. 

Mullin got lucky he had bright, young talent like St. Jean and Matt's recruiting. What's the most memorable thing the 2 Hall of Famers did together while on SJU's payroll? Play a round of Horse with Bill Walton, in Hawaii. I rest my case.

Norm didn't miss any recruit visits to go bike riding with Walton either.  

I suppose that we can split hairs over whose winning% was worse in conf, out of conf, etc, etc  until the cows come home and never get anywhere.  
Bottom line is that Norm took over this program at its lowest point since its inception and cleaned it up.   The team he left to Lavin won 21 games in Lavin's first year.  
Mullin took over a team that had just been to the NCAA tournament and delivered Norm like results for 4 seasons.  
One of these is not like the other.  So much so that it should be clear even to those who cannot separate Mullin the HOF player from Mullin the worst coach in school history.



 

How do you go from crediting Norm for leaving Lavin a good roster and then immediately switch over to saying "Mullin took over a team that had just been to an NCAA tournament" 

What of that NCAA tournament was left for Mullin? Let's be fair here... 

You clearly know leaving a good roster for the next coach is important because you credit Norm for doing it... but when it comes to what Lavin left Mullin, we just ignore it?

Mullin wasn't a good coach but thats still not fair 

You missed the point.    Its not about what roster they inherited, they both inherited an empty cupboard. 
Its about the state of the program they inherited and where they left it when they were done.   
Mullin inherited a team that was relevant again (Thanks to the work Lavin and Norm had done) and did nothing with it.
Norm inherited a team/program that was a laughingstock, an embarrassment, and barely an after thought for any local players of note.  He turned over that full roster to Lavin who took them to the dance.  Not saying Norm would have gotten them there but he clrealy advanced the ball in his time here.  Mullin didn't.  

Even so, you’re giving Norm credit for clearing baby steps that mullin didn’t have to. 

it’s alot easier to take over a program that was going through a giant scandal, lose basketball games, but keep a clean program. If that’s what Norm accomplished than congrats to him.

but that’s a lot easier to do than to take over an empty roster and build a winner. 

they’re both bad coaches, but I think we looked at Norm with a bit of rose colored glasses just because his players weren’t in strip clubs… which isn’t really fair to the coaches that came after 
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Mullin podcast interview 1 week 4 days ago #439198

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Jack Williams post=439191 wrote:

SJUFAN2 post=439113 wrote:

Jack Williams post=439110 wrote:

SJUFAN2 post=439077 wrote:

AlexSTJ post=439073

19854ever post=439071 wrote: I’ll stand by my opinion that Norm was the worst coach in the history of the program. Mullin’s best season his last much better than Norms 2 seasons above .500, attendance also was much better under Chris than Norm. Both coaches were left with empty cupboards when hired.

Both did not do a great job, I disagree that Norm did better with less. Steve Lavin had a solid year his first season with Norms players got them to the NCAAS was runner up for Big East coach of the year. Norm flat out was an awful in game coach, did he work harder recruiting than Chris probably but end of the day his losing % is worse than Chris.

You are what your record says you are.

Mullin beat a few more cupcakes during the early season. Wow. Attendance? Come on.

Robert's Conference winning % - .314. Against HOFs Calhoun, Wright, Huggins, Boeheim, Pitino. Can't forget JT3, Dixon, Brey, Cronin. 

Mullin's Conference winning % - .278 against a much weaker conference except Wright and Nova, with better players recruited by Matt A. 

Mullin got lucky he had bright, young talent like St. Jean and Matt's recruiting. What's the most memorable thing the 2 Hall of Famers did together while on SJU's payroll? Play a round of Horse with Bill Walton, in Hawaii. I rest my case.

Norm didn't miss any recruit visits to go bike riding with Walton either.  

I suppose that we can split hairs over whose winning% was worse in conf, out of conf, etc, etc  until the cows come home and never get anywhere.  
Bottom line is that Norm took over this program at its lowest point since its inception and cleaned it up.   The team he left to Lavin won 21 games in Lavin's first year.  
Mullin took over a team that had just been to the NCAA tournament and delivered Norm like results for 4 seasons.  
One of these is not like the other.  So much so that it should be clear even to those who cannot separate Mullin the HOF player from Mullin the worst coach in school history.




 

How do you go from crediting Norm for leaving Lavin a good roster and then immediately switch over to saying "Mullin took over a team that had just been to an NCAA tournament" 

What of that NCAA tournament was left for Mullin? Let's be fair here... 

You clearly know leaving a good roster for the next coach is important because you credit Norm for doing it... but when it comes to what Lavin left Mullin, we just ignore it?

Mullin wasn't a good coach but thats still not fair 

You missed the point.    Its not about what roster they inherited, they both inherited an empty cupboard. 
Its about the state of the program they inherited and where they left it when they were done.   
Mullin inherited a team that was relevant again (Thanks to the work Lavin and Norm had done) and did nothing with it.
Norm inherited a team/program that was a laughingstock, an embarrassment, and barely an after thought for any local players of note.  He turned over that full roster to Lavin who took them to the dance.  Not saying Norm would have gotten them there but he clrealy advanced the ball in his time here.  Mullin didn't.  

Even so, you’re giving Norm credit for clearing baby steps that mullin didn’t have to. 

it’s alot easier to take over a program that was going through a giant scandal, lose basketball games, but keep a clean program. If that’s what Norm accomplished than congrats to him.

but that’s a lot easier to do than to take over an empty roster and build a winner. 

they’re both bad coaches, but I think we looked at Norm with a bit of rose colored glasses just because his players weren’t in strip clubs… which isn’t really fair to the coaches that came after 

Norm took over a team that had zero talent, a horrible reputation, and was facing NCAA sanctions for the Jarvis era.   It took him 6 years to put together a roster that could win in the BE (as it did the the following season under Lavin).
Mullin came into a program that had been cleaned up by Norm, and made nationally relevant by Lavin with his high profile recruiting and two NCAA appearances.   When Mullin left he had a staff in shambles and no talent in the pipeline for his successor.  

One guy took on a reclamation project for a program that was a national embarrassment/laughingstock and cleaned things up while setting up his successor for immediate success.
The other guy took over a program on the rise and used his legendary player status to help the program regress.  
One of them did a "meh" job as a HC.  The other one was Mullin.  

Just curious Jack, but how old were you when the Jarvi were running things here?   I could be wrong, and its certainly not a knock on you, but it feels like you may not have experienced that transition to Norm the way some of us did. 
 

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Mullin podcast interview 1 week 4 days ago #439199

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otis post=439188I would also add to SJUFAN's comments that Norm's program was placed on NCAA probation in November of Norm's first season at St. John's which was certainly a hinderance his recruiting.

It was reported that prior to his hiring Norm asked "Suits" whether there was any chance of NCAA infractions and "Suits" told him that the matters had been resolved.  Had Norm known of the looming NCAA probation he may not have take the job.

In my opinion Norm should be remembered as a good man who was the wrong hire.  Recall that Suits Harrington ran the selection process.  Why Suits would hire a young assistant coach with no D! head coaching experience to take over the scandal ridden program is less a reflection on Norm than on him.

 

As I recall, Harrington was a major part of the problem for sure, but in fairness, people weren't exactly lining up to take the job.  As much as the search to replace Mullin was a shit show, the search to replace Jarvis was even tougher.  Nobody wanted the gig.
Norm got the job because he was clean cut, local, had a good reputation for doing things the right way and for recruiting. 
I can't even remember who the other options were at that point, but it would be interesting to see what happened to them since then.   Not sure any of them would have done a better job than Norm, that's how bad things were here when he was hired. 
 
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Mullin podcast interview 1 week 4 days ago #439200

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It came down to Norm and Doherty. 

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Mullin podcast interview 1 week 4 days ago #439202

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MainMan post=439200 wrote: It came down to Norm and Doherty. 

Apparently Dave Leito was in the mix along with Tim Welsh.
nypost.com/2004/04/13/st-johns-chooses-roberts/

Welsh might have done a better job, but with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, Doherty and Leito would have been as big a bust as Norm turned out to be.   

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Mullin podcast interview 1 week 4 days ago #439205

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SJUFAN2 post=439202 wrote:

MainMan post=439200 wrote: It came down to Norm and Doherty. 

Apparently Dave Leito was in the mix along with Tim Welsh.
nypost.com/2004/04/13/st-johns-chooses-roberts/

Welsh might have done a better job, but with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, Doherty and Leito would have been as big a bust as Norm turned out to be.   


 


I wanted Doherty. I'm a sucker for castoffs from blue blood programs like Lavin.

(Except of course, Lavin was almost universally liked by everyone at STJ and Doh was despised by almost everyone at UNC.)

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Mullin podcast interview 1 week 4 days ago #439207

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MainMan post=439205 wrote:

SJUFAN2 post=439202 wrote:

MainMan post=439200 wrote: It came down to Norm and Doherty. 

Apparently Dave Leito was in the mix along with Tim Welsh.
nypost.com/2004/04/13/st-johns-chooses-roberts/

Welsh might have done a better job, but with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, Doherty and Leito would have been as big a bust as Norm turned out to be.   



 


I wanted Doherty. I'm a sucker for castoffs from blue blood programs like Lavin.

(Except of course, Lavin was almost universally liked by everyone at STJ and Doh was despised by almost everyone at UNC.)

Wasn't Doherty being shoved down the administrations throat by a wall street booster with deep pockets? Or am I thinking of someone else?
Maybe that would have made a difference but Matt was a pretty bad coach in his own right.

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Mullin podcast interview 1 week 4 days ago #439208

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Yes, I think a guy named Riley was pledging to a major donation if Doherty was hired. 
Doherty wrote a book recently where he was told that the job was his. And then they gave it to Norm at the 11th hour.

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