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Mike Anderson - Recruiting, Coaching, Etc. 6 days 16 hours ago #412165

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Monte wrote:

Coincidentally was just having that conversation with another poster about the same thing you mention. Let's face facts, 2 Mil salary HC jobs, for recently termintated 60 year old coaches,  don't hang on trees. I don't blame CMA for jumping at the opportunity when it presented itself, and I don't blame the school for presenting it. Especially in light of the other less-then-steller options. But at some point over next few years, the school is going to have to decide what thier plans are for the future of our program. Because right now, the future feels just about as bleak as the past. 
 

I didn't go to St. John's (my dad did), so I'm primarilly a basketball fan. The only connection I have to the school/money side generally comes from jerseyshorejohnny posts. If we fail with Anderson, I think we'll need to make the leap to the $3 million salary range. Obviously a lot of things will have to go right with the school to make that leap, but a top program has been shown to boost applications, and certainly donations. $2-$2.5 million range just doesn't get you as much as it used to.
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Mike Anderson - Recruiting, Coaching, Etc. 6 days 16 hours ago #412169

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At some point, the increasing salary as the answer, becomes diminishing returns (other than select few legend coaches that wouldn't leave or ever come here). 

Holtmann and Mack left Big East for state school jobs and got big time money, or even now Pikell.  These guys are pushing $3-4M.   I don't think these guys have reputations that would fast track anything more than Anderson.

Think we really need to get the infrastructure, training facilities and amenities right, and decide if we will play fair or not to whatever degree, to draw the talent we want and make big push with marketing the program.

I get the school may be struggling financially now,, but at same time it's chicken or the egg.  To me, this program is more than basketball for the school, it's a big part of the reputation.  Invest here will pay off a lot more than half of the less than stellar academic programs.  I really hope Fr. Shanley is able and willing to make some tough decisions, get real creative on partnerships (athletic and academic) and place some big bets with the end in mind.

I shared this relevant quote with another member recently. Think it applies well to  our program success.
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Mike Anderson - Recruiting, Coaching, Etc. 6 days 15 hours ago #412175

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L J S A wrote:

Monte wrote:

Coincidentally was just having that conversation with another poster about the same thing you mention. Let's face facts, 2 Mil salary HC jobs, for recently termintated 60 year old coaches,  don't hang on trees. I don't blame CMA for jumping at the opportunity when it presented itself, and I don't blame the school for presenting it. Especially in light of the other less-then-steller options. But at some point over next few years, the school is going to have to decide what thier plans are for the future of our program. Because right now, the future feels just about as bleak as the past. 
 

I didn't go to St. John's (my dad did), so I'm primarilly a basketball fan. The only connection I have to the school/money side generally comes from jerseyshorejohnny posts. If we fail with Anderson, I think we'll need to make the leap to the $3 million salary range. Obviously a lot of things will have to go right with the school to make that leap, but a top program has been shown to boost applications, and certainly donations. $2-$2.5 million range just doesn't get you as much as it used to.


Nothing says we have to take a leap.  At this point now we have paid considerable for names and it hasn't gotten us anywhere.  And if Anderson doesnt see out his full contract we will again be on the hook for payouts.  I have no qualms trying to get a young up and comer the next time around. Someone young and hungry.  Of course the hat-trick is young, hungry and SJU being his 'dream' type job.  But we are still at least 2 full seasons away from those conversations so.
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Mike Anderson - Recruiting, Coaching, Etc. 6 days 15 hours ago #412178

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RedStormNC wrote: At some point, the increasing salary as the answer, becomes diminishing returns (other than select few legend coaches that wouldn't leave or ever come here). 

Holtmann and Mack left Big East for state school jobs and got big time money, or even now Pikell.  These guys are pushing $3-4M.   I don't think these guys have reputations that would fast track anything more than Anderson.

Think we really need to get the infrastructure, training facilities and amenities right, and decide if we will play fair or not to whatever degree, to draw the talent we want and make big push with marketing the program.

I get the school may be struggling financially now,, but at same time it's chicken or the egg.  To me, this program is more than basketball for the school, it's a big part of the reputation.  Invest here will pay off a lot more than half of the less than stellar academic programs.  I really hope Fr. Shanley is able and willing to make some tough decisions, get real creative on partnerships (athletic and academic) and place some big bets with the end in mind.

I shared this relevant quote with another member recently. Think it applies well to  our program success.



I was invited to a meeting in NYC in December 2016 or 2017 with one of our assistant coach's to talk about facilities or the lack thereof.  The theme of the meeting was that we were at a compeptive disadvatage versus the rest of the Big East. Not a lot has changed since.

I think it's imperative for us to give our coaches the infrastructure they need in order to compete and recruit  on a level playing field.

If you hire someone, you should put them in a position to win

Unfortunately, this is easier said than done, particularly in the current enviornment

As "they" say: Without Money All Else Fails





 

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Mike Anderson - Recruiting, Coaching, Etc. 6 days 15 hours ago #412179

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 I have no qualms trying to get a young up and comer the next time around. Someone young and hungry.  Of course the hat-trick is young, hungry and SJU being his 'dream' type job.  But we are still at least 2 full seasons away from those conversations so.


Moose is perfectly describing the hiring of Fran Fraschilla about 25 years ago. Fran could have (and should have) been a highly successful coach at St John's for many, many years.
 

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Mike Anderson - Recruiting, Coaching, Etc. 6 days 2 hours ago #412196

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jerseyshorejohnny wrote:

RedStormNC wrote: At some point, the increasing salary as the answer, becomes diminishing returns (other than select few legend coaches that wouldn't leave or ever come here). 

Holtmann and Mack left Big East for state school jobs and got big time money, or even now Pikell.  These guys are pushing $3-4M.   I don't think these guys have reputations that would fast track anything more than Anderson.

Think we really need to get the infrastructure, training facilities and amenities right, and decide if we will play fair or not to whatever degree, to draw the talent we want and make big push with marketing the program.

I get the school may be struggling financially now,, but at same time it's chicken or the egg.  To me, this program is more than basketball for the school, it's a big part of the reputation.  Invest here will pay off a lot more than half of the less than stellar academic programs.  I really hope Fr. Shanley is able and willing to make some tough decisions, get real creative on partnerships (athletic and academic) and place some big bets with the end in mind.

I shared this relevant quote with another member recently. Think it applies well to  our program success.



I was invited to a meeting in NYC in December 2016 or 2017 with one of our assistant coach's to talk about facilities or the lack thereof.  The theme of the meeting was that we were at a compeptive disadvatage versus the rest of the Big East. Not a lot has changed since.

I think it's imperative for us to give our coaches the infrastructure they need in order to compete and recruit  on a level playing field.

If you hire someone, you should put them in a position to win

Unfortunately, this is easier said than done, particularly in the current enviornment

As "they" say: Without Money All Else Fails







 

I think all points are valid, but unfortunately it is a chicken and egg argument.    If you win, you have an opportunity to raise more money, and if you raise money you can invest in winning.

I've spent many days in the Pavillion at Villanova, and can pretty much assure you it was a dump.  However, it didn't prevent Jay Wright from building a perennial winner where he can literally compete for the very best talent.    Even when the school raised money, (a highly successfully $300 million campaign the year Father Peter arrived, circa 2006), they invested in other places on campus.   They then initiated an even more ambitious $600 million campaign in 2014.  It was super organized, and believe it or not, they kicked it off at a hotel across the street from the Garden.   I was in attendance, and they drew a large crowd, and all prominent Villanova leaders, including Jay Wright, were there.   This was before the 2 national championships of course, but still they easily met the campaign goals.   Of course they had bball success before then.   They raised enough money to plan to build a new on campus arena, and only changed plans when Radnor township pushed back on a larger arena over parking and more importantly the traffic it would bring to Lancaster Avenue.   Instead, they just about gutted the Pavillion and built a gorgeous arena inside.  JSJ and I took in a game there last February.

One of the investments that Villanova made to grow the school was a top notch, well compensated staff of fund raisers.   Before the oldest of two kids we sent to Villanova was 1/3 way thru freshman year, they reached out to me in a personal way.   They knew where I worked, my job title, and presumable from FAFSA applications knew my family income.   Th development office built relationships - I was invited to lunch right away near where I worked, and that became an annual thing.   When I needed help from them, they were responsive in all ways.   My donations really didn't warrant that kind of attention, but I was treated as a friend always and not as a checkbook.   I would consider Father Peter, his predecessor Father Dobbin, and several other administrators friends even today.   A few weeks ago I sent them a warm personal email and immediately heard back from both Father Peter and another administrator.   When my son ultimately turned down Villanova to attend BC, I notified Father Peter directly of his choice.   His response to me still resonates - "Don't worry.   You and your family will always be Villanovans for life."    Great school and great people.   Their success is not haphazard or random.   They are sincerely great people, great educators, and great admnistrators.    (Paul hates me gushing about Nova, but this is all true and relevant to our situation).

My experience was quite different at BC.   They never once reached out, and early on when we were shut out of limited seating events, did not even respond to my request for them to see what they could do.   Their parent's weekend was a joke by comparison, and the school was never as warm and welcoming as Villanova.    Still, to their credit, alumni donate tons of money and their endowment dwarfs Villanova's.

I'm so excited that Father Shanley has the potential to bring a cultural change to St. John's.   The past 3 presidents - Cahill, Harrington, and Gempeshaw were cool at best to forming relationships beyond the biggest donors, lacking the charisma and interest in connecting with students, admnistrators, and alumni.   

I sincerely hope Father Shanley will show the SJU community how it's done, and be able to grow the investment of our donor base in the success and growth of the university, far beyond basketball.


 
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Mike Anderson - Recruiting, Coaching, Etc. 6 days 2 hours ago #412197

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Moose wrote: Nothing says we have to take a leap.  At this point now we have paid considerable for names and it hasn't gotten us anywhere.  And if Anderson doesnt see out his full contract we will again be on the hook for payouts.  I have no qualms trying to get a young up and comer the next time around. Someone young and hungry.  Of course the hat-trick is young, hungry and SJU being his 'dream' type job.  But we are still at least 2 full seasons away from those conversations so.


First, I think the conversation is very premature.  Anderson was never going to be an "immediate turnaround guy."  We tried that with Lavin and again with Mullin and it didn't work in either case.  Anderson was brought in to be a program builder, which means to hopefully break the cycle of being halfway decent on a quadrennial basis followed by a return to awful and instead to lay a foundation and build a pipeline that can lead to being consistently good.  So he's going to given the same four years that every other coach deserves to see if he can in fact do that.

But if he can't then I agree with you - the job for SJU will be to try to identify a young coach who will hopefully be better than Norm was (which was the last time we went down this road, but the university seems to have a higher degree of competence now so hope springs eternal).
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Mike Anderson - Recruiting, Coaching, Etc. 5 days 23 hours ago #412215

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Beast of the East wrote:

jerseyshorejohnny wrote:

RedStormNC wrote: At some point, the increasing salary as the answer, becomes diminishing returns (other than select few legend coaches that wouldn't leave or ever come here). 

Holtmann and Mack left Big East for state school jobs and got big time money, or even now Pikell.  These guys are pushing $3-4M.   I don't think these guys have reputations that would fast track anything more than Anderson.

Think we really need to get the infrastructure, training facilities and amenities right, and decide if we will play fair or not to whatever degree, to draw the talent we want and make big push with marketing the program.

I get the school may be struggling financially now,, but at same time it's chicken or the egg.  To me, this program is more than basketball for the school, it's a big part of the reputation.  Invest here will pay off a lot more than half of the less than stellar academic programs.  I really hope Fr. Shanley is able and willing to make some tough decisions, get real creative on partnerships (athletic and academic) and place some big bets with the end in mind.

I shared this relevant quote with another member recently. Think it applies well to  our program success.



I was invited to a meeting in NYC in December 2016 or 2017 with one of our assistant coach's to talk about facilities or the lack thereof.  The theme of the meeting was that we were at a compeptive disadvatage versus the rest of the Big East. Not a lot has changed since.

I think it's imperative for us to give our coaches the infrastructure they need in order to compete and recruit  on a level playing field.

If you hire someone, you should put them in a position to win

Unfortunately, this is easier said than done, particularly in the current enviornment

As "they" say: Without Money All Else Fails











 

I think all points are valid, but unfortunately it is a chicken and egg argument.    If you win, you have an opportunity to raise more money, and if you raise money you can invest in winning.

I've spent many days in the Pavillion at Villanova, and can pretty much assure you it was a dump.  However, it didn't prevent Jay Wright from building a perennial winner where he can literally compete for the very best talent.    Even when the school raised money, (a highly successfully $300 million campaign the year Father Peter arrived, circa 2006), they invested in other places on campus.   They then initiated an even more ambitious $600 million campaign in 2014.  It was super organized, and believe it or not, they kicked it off at a hotel across the street from the Garden.   I was in attendance, and they drew a large crowd, and all prominent Villanova leaders, including Jay Wright, were there.   This was before the 2 national championships of course, but still they easily met the campaign goals.   Of course they had bball success before then.   They raised enough money to plan to build a new on campus arena, and only changed plans when Radnor township pushed back on a larger arena over parking and more importantly the traffic it would bring to Lancaster Avenue.   Instead, they just about gutted the Pavillion and built a gorgeous arena inside.  JSJ and I took in a game there last February.

One of the investments that Villanova made to grow the school was a top notch, well compensated staff of fund raisers.   Before the oldest of two kids we sent to Villanova was 1/3 way thru freshman year, they reached out to me in a personal way.   They knew where I worked, my job title, and presumable from FAFSA applications knew my family income.   Th development office built relationships - I was invited to lunch right away near where I worked, and that became an annual thing.   When I needed help from them, they were responsive in all ways.   My donations really didn't warrant that kind of attention, but I was treated as a friend always and not as a checkbook.   I would consider Father Peter, his predecessor Father Dobbin, and several other administrators friends even today.   A few weeks ago I sent them a warm personal email and immediately heard back from both Father Peter and another administrator.   When my son ultimately turned down Villanova to attend BC, I notified Father Peter directly of his choice.   His response to me still resonates - "Don't worry.   You and your family will always be Villanovans for life."    Great school and great people.   Their success is not haphazard or random.   They are sincerely great people, great educators, and great admnistrators.    (Paul hates me gushing about Nova, but this is all true and relevant to our situation).

My experience was quite different at BC.   They never once reached out, and early on when we were shut out of limited seating events, did not even respond to my request for them to see what they could do.   Their parent's weekend was a joke by comparison, and the school was never as warm and welcoming as Villanova.    Still, to their credit, alumni donate tons of money and their endowment dwarfs Villanova's.

I'm so excited that Father Shanley has the potential to bring a cultural change to St. John's.   The past 3 presidents - Cahill, Harrington, and Gempeshaw were cool at best to forming relationships beyond the biggest donors, lacking the charisma and interest in connecting with students, admnistrators, and alumni.   

I sincerely hope Father Shanley will show the SJU community how it's done, and be able to grow the investment of our donor base in the success and growth of the university, far beyond basketball.

Beast, as I know you are aware, a major difference between St. John's and Villanova /BC is that these institutions have a base of parents that have financial capacity

A great friend of mine, who has achieved outsized financial success, has a daugher who was admiited to Georgetown. Before she even stepped foot on campus, as a student, he was solicited by a Georgetown development officer.

As  a university with a Pell eligible population of 40% we simply do not have a meaningful number of those type of parents 







 

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Regression? 5 days 22 hours ago #412219

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Adam wrote: Warning signs have been clear since very early in CMA's tenure. Zero recruits from Arkansas followed him here. He wasn't ever even "in" on any 4 star recruits during his time at St. John's, with the exception of a couple borderline 3/4 stars (such as the one we lost out on to Georgetown). That shouldn't happen with an established P6 coach who landed plenty of 4 stars throughout his career. Compare that to Lavin who immediately landed a top 10 class despite being out of coaching for a long time. Compare that to Mullin who immediately landed a top 25 class despite never coaching before.

Recruiting has regressed while the rest of the league has improved. Simple as that. Can't compete in the Big East with 3 stars and JUCOs. Yes, a couple have outperformed their HS/JUCO rating but most haven't. It's very rare for a coach to consistenly find 3 stars capable of competing at this level. CMA consistently landed top 25-40 classes at Arkansas but for whatever reason he hasn't done that here in 3 classes (2019, 2020, 2021).

Your comment that CMA isnt recruiting at the level he did at Arkansas is not a mystery. It is the elephant in the room that gets no traction because neither the money or the mindset is there to  make SJU the attraction it deserves to be. 

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Mike Anderson - Recruiting, Coaching, Etc. 5 days 22 hours ago #412220

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jerseyshorejohnny wrote:

Beast of the East wrote:

jerseyshorejohnny wrote:

RedStormNC wrote: At some point, the increasing salary as the answer, becomes diminishing returns (other than select few legend coaches that wouldn't leave or ever come here). 

Holtmann and Mack left Big East for state school jobs and got big time money, or even now Pikell.  These guys are pushing $3-4M.   I don't think these guys have reputations that would fast track anything more than Anderson.

Think we really need to get the infrastructure, training facilities and amenities right, and decide if we will play fair or not to whatever degree, to draw the talent we want and make big push with marketing the program.

I get the school may be struggling financially now,, but at same time it's chicken or the egg.  To me, this program is more than basketball for the school, it's a big part of the reputation.  Invest here will pay off a lot more than half of the less than stellar academic programs.  I really hope Fr. Shanley is able and willing to make some tough decisions, get real creative on partnerships (athletic and academic) and place some big bets with the end in mind.

I shared this relevant quote with another member recently. Think it applies well to  our program success.



I was invited to a meeting in NYC in December 2016 or 2017 with one of our assistant coach's to talk about facilities or the lack thereof.  The theme of the meeting was that we were at a compeptive disadvatage versus the rest of the Big East. Not a lot has changed since.

I think it's imperative for us to give our coaches the infrastructure they need in order to compete and recruit  on a level playing field.

If you hire someone, you should put them in a position to win

Unfortunately, this is easier said than done, particularly in the current enviornment

As "they" say: Without Money All Else Fails












 

I think all points are valid, but unfortunately it is a chicken and egg argument.    If you win, you have an opportunity to raise more money, and if you raise money you can invest in winning.

I've spent many days in the Pavillion at Villanova, and can pretty much assure you it was a dump.  However, it didn't prevent Jay Wright from building a perennial winner where he can literally compete for the very best talent.    Even when the school raised money, (a highly successfully $300 million campaign the year Father Peter arrived, circa 2006), they invested in other places on campus.   They then initiated an even more ambitious $600 million campaign in 2014.  It was super organized, and believe it or not, they kicked it off at a hotel across the street from the Garden.   I was in attendance, and they drew a large crowd, and all prominent Villanova leaders, including Jay Wright, were there.   This was before the 2 national championships of course, but still they easily met the campaign goals.   Of course they had bball success before then.   They raised enough money to plan to build a new on campus arena, and only changed plans when Radnor township pushed back on a larger arena over parking and more importantly the traffic it would bring to Lancaster Avenue.   Instead, they just about gutted the Pavillion and built a gorgeous arena inside.  JSJ and I took in a game there last February.

One of the investments that Villanova made to grow the school was a top notch, well compensated staff of fund raisers.   Before the oldest of two kids we sent to Villanova was 1/3 way thru freshman year, they reached out to me in a personal way.   They knew where I worked, my job title, and presumable from FAFSA applications knew my family income.   Th development office built relationships - I was invited to lunch right away near where I worked, and that became an annual thing.   When I needed help from them, they were responsive in all ways.   My donations really didn't warrant that kind of attention, but I was treated as a friend always and not as a checkbook.   I would consider Father Peter, his predecessor Father Dobbin, and several other administrators friends even today.   A few weeks ago I sent them a warm personal email and immediately heard back from both Father Peter and another administrator.   When my son ultimately turned down Villanova to attend BC, I notified Father Peter directly of his choice.   His response to me still resonates - "Don't worry.   You and your family will always be Villanovans for life."    Great school and great people.   Their success is not haphazard or random.   They are sincerely great people, great educators, and great admnistrators.    (Paul hates me gushing about Nova, but this is all true and relevant to our situation).

My experience was quite different at BC.   They never once reached out, and early on when we were shut out of limited seating events, did not even respond to my request for them to see what they could do.   Their parent's weekend was a joke by comparison, and the school was never as warm and welcoming as Villanova.    Still, to their credit, alumni donate tons of money and their endowment dwarfs Villanova's.

I'm so excited that Father Shanley has the potential to bring a cultural change to St. John's.   The past 3 presidents - Cahill, Harrington, and Gempeshaw were cool at best to forming relationships beyond the biggest donors, lacking the charisma and interest in connecting with students, admnistrators, and alumni.   

I sincerely hope Father Shanley will show the SJU community how it's done, and be able to grow the investment of our donor base in the success and growth of the university, far beyond basketball.

Beast, as I know you are aware, a major difference between St. John's and Villanova /BC is that these institutions have a base of parents that have financial capacity

A great friend of mine, who has achieved outsized financial success, has a daugher who was admiited to Georgetown. Before she even stepped foot on campus, as a student, he was solicited by a Georgetown development officer.

As  a university with a Pell eligible population of 40% we simply do not have a meaningful number of those type of parents 








 

JSJ, you've pointed this out to me many times.   I think our students of today do not compare favorably overall with the better Catholic schools in the region GT, Nova, BC, HC, Fordham, and a few others.   However, there are a very large number of very successful SJU graduates from the 50s, 60s, 70s, and 80s who have carved out very nice careers.    Obviously we have many students today from disadvantaged backgrounds whose parents of course are not in a position to be donors.  On the other hand, our undergraduate population is twice that of Villanova, and we have a good number of successful graduates who simply do not support the school with donations.

Part of it is making alumni feel part of the community.   I'm told when we have alumni events, if they are free they are very well attended, but if we even charge $25, not well attended at all.   I believe that some of our alumni attend free events thinking that they are doing their part as alumni by simply attending.    We may not be capable of raising the kind of money Villanova does, but we can be a lot more successful than we have been by working at changing the culture of giving at SJU.
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