Welcome, Guest
Username: Password: Remember me

TOPIC:

Mike Anderson - Recruiting, Coaching, Etc. 3 months 1 week ago #396090

  • redmannorth
  • redmannorth's Avatar
  • Away
  • Posts: 4190
  • Thank you received: 3809
Please direct all your recruiting comments, fears, doubts, concerns in this thread.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Mike Anderson - Recruiting, Coaching, Etc. 3 months 1 week ago #396091

  • JohnnyFan
  • JohnnyFan's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Posts: 4145
  • Thank you received: 3005
I don't love the name of this thread. Now we are just perpetuating a false narrative that has been adopted by just a few perpetually disgruntled malcontents.

CMA has essentially had one recruiting class at SJU. It includes Posh and Cole; along with some promising pieces that make it a quality first class. It's been one friggin year. Can't we have a little patience? We finally have an actual basketball coach. I am willing bet this turns out better than the Lavin and Mullin eras. Let's, at least, give it the same amount of time.
The following user(s) said Thank You: panther2, Sherman, Sheridan & Grant, Amaseinyourface, L J S A, Eric, Chicago Days

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last edit: by JohnnyFan.

Mike Anderson - Recruiting, Coaching, Etc. 3 months 1 week ago #396095

  • Truck
  • Truck's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Posts: 16
  • Thank you received: 13
This is question that CMA has face has whole career. 4 and 5 stars players dont want in défense first system plus an offense where no one player control the ball. CMA is also staight shooter. He has never been allege in any recruiting violation.
The following user(s) said Thank You: fuchsia, Sherman, Sheridan & Grant, Chicago Days

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Mike Anderson - Recruiting, Coaching, Etc. 3 months 1 week ago #396096

  • Section3
  • Section3's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Posts: 2452
  • Thank you received: 649

SJUFAN2 wrote:

Mike Zaun wrote: If it works and we're making tourneys then of course I'd be happy and have a change of heart. But it's like hitting the same number twice in roulette vs. red or black. The red and black bets are much better odds (4 star kids) vs. having to hit numbers (3 star kids). One is more sustainable than the other. The odds are simply better which is why your pre-season ranking will be as good as your players are. It's not me feeling a certain way, it's just the model that is proven to succeed vs. the model that mostly does not succeed save for exceptions. I prefer the one that is proven to succeed which is a good coach (CMA) plus good recruiting (not proven yet).


Except, you are wrong. Its not like roulette. His way DOES work.
CMA has a .642 winning % in his career.
He's never had a losing record in 18 seasons. Not one. Not even in his first year here.
In 17 seasons before coming here, he'd been to 9 NCAA tournaments and 3 NIT's.

The issue here isn't recruiting. It's impatience. Some of you guys just want results Today. I get it, but you aren't getting them. STJ isn't a premiere destination. Kids today look at us as irrelevant. As a Mom & Pop/bottom feeder program. The top kids aren't going to non elite programs without $$$ on the table. We've got no (recent) history to sell them, no $$ to offer, and shitty facilities (outside of the handful of games we play at MSG).
So I ask again...
Why would a top 80-100 kid want to come here when he's got offers from better schools, more successful programs, and $$$ on the table from boosters and sneaker execs?

You should probably accept that they just aren't coming here until we improve in one of those categories and move on, but you won't. Instead we'll have to hear about what you guys deem as acceptable recruiting ad nauseum, at least until the results on the court either shut you all up, or they force CMA out.

Let the man do his job. He's been fine so far and he knows a lot more about how to win basketball games and build a winning program than any of us do.

Hammer meet head of nail....as hard as it to admit, our drought has made us into the 60 year old guy who wonders why people call him sir...pisses me off all the time :)

The good news is...Lavin proved you can recruit, at a high level, to SJ...unfortunately we have to start winning first
The following user(s) said Thank You: Sherman, Sheridan & Grant

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Mike Anderson - Recruiting, Coaching, Etc. 3 months 1 week ago #396097

  • usguard
  • usguard's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Posts: 5139
  • Thank you received: 342
Don’t see a big diff btw a good 3* and 4*This is an area where a good coachIng spots low talent with potential and turns them into 4 or 5* Actually,ranking should be taken lightly
The following user(s) said Thank You: Eric

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Mike Anderson - Recruiting, Coaching, Etc. 3 months 1 week ago #396098

  • Sherman, Sheridan & Grant
  • Sherman, Sheridan & Grant's Avatar
  • Away
  • Posts: 2827
  • Thank you received: 1251

JohnnyFan wrote: I don't love the name of this thread. Now we are just perpetuating a false narrative that has been adopted by just a few perpetually disgruntled malcontents.

CMA has essentially had one recruiting class at SJU. It includes Posh and Cole; along with some promising pieces that make it a quality first class. It's been one friggin year. Can't we have a little patience? We finally have an actual basketball coach. I am willing bet this turns out better than the Lavin and Mullin eras. Let's, at least, give it the same amount of time.


Johnny Fan
I like what you posted especially:
“We finally have an actual basketball coach“
Maybe we can have a summit like Yalta or Potsdam
( you can tell what I’ve been reading )
And
NO NORE DISCUSSION ABOUT RECRUITING UNTIL 2023-24

I so much enjoyed 2019-20
I enjoyed the staff and players
I liked how hard we played
I like how we improved at seasons end
I’m excited about the direction we are headed

I won’t repeat my prior posts where laid out Coach K and Coach Carlissimo’s early recruiting and WL
records at Duke/ Seton Hall

Let’s give it a rest and give our coach the reasonable amount of time he needs.

I’m very annoyed at myself for continuing to participate in recruiting discussion - I’ll try harder not to have SS&G included herein.
All the best guys and gals
All the best!
The following user(s) said Thank You: isham, Rehobie, Eric, JohnnyFan, NCJohnnie

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Mike Anderson - Recruiting, Coaching, Etc. 3 months 1 week ago #396100

  • NCJohnnie
  • NCJohnnie's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Posts: 4233
  • Thank you received: 5055
Guys, give me a break. It's kind of management 101 that if you make a big hire after that candidate has convinced you that their approach will work, you sit back and support them for a reasonable time before you criticize. That is particularly true when they have a proven record of success in past jobs.
Don't see why fans wouldn't take the same approach. I'd hate to work with some of the posters on this thread; just a recipe for misery.
I've been a die hard fan for almost 60 years, doesn't have squat to do with patience or impatience.
The following user(s) said Thank You: johnsliva, redmanwest, panther2, L J S A, Eric, JohnnyFan

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Mike Anderson - Recruiting, Coaching, Etc. 3 months 1 week ago #396104

  • Boo Harvey
  • Boo Harvey's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Posts: 1703
  • Thank you received: 456

SJUFAN2 wrote:

Boo Harvey wrote:

MJDinkins wrote:

SJUFAN2 wrote:

Mike Zaun wrote: If it works and we're making tourneys then of course I'd be happy and have a change of heart. But it's like hitting the same number twice in roulette vs. red or black. The red and black bets are much better odds (4 star kids) vs. having to hit numbers (3 star kids). One is more sustainable than the other. The odds are simply better which is why your pre-season ranking will be as good as your players are. It's not me feeling a certain way, it's just the model that is proven to succeed vs. the model that mostly does not succeed save for exceptions. I prefer the one that is proven to succeed which is a good coach (CMA) plus good recruiting (not proven yet).


Except, you are wrong. Its not like roulette. His way DOES work.
CMA has a .642 winning % in his career.
He's never had a losing record in 18 seasons. Not one. Not even in his first year here.
In 17 seasons before coming here, he'd been to 9 NCAA tournaments and 3 NIT's.

The issue here isn't recruiting. It's impatience. Some of you guys just want results Today. I get it, but you aren't getting them. STJ isn't a premiere destination. Kids today look at us as irrelevant. As a Mom & Pop/bottom feeder program. The top kids aren't going to non elite programs without $$$. We've got no history to sell them, not $$ to offer and shitty facilities (outside of the handful of games we play at MSG).
So I ask again...
Why would a top 80-100 kid want to come here when he's got offers from better schools, more successful programs, and $$$ on the table from boosters and sneaker execs?

You should probably accept that they just aren't coming here until we improve in one of those categories and move on, but you won't. Instead we'll have to hear about what you guys deem as acceptable recruiting ad nauseum, at least until the results on the court either shut you all up, or they force CMA out.

Let the man do his job. He's been fine so far and he knows a lot more about how to win basketball games and build a winning program than any of us do.


He's the ring leader amongst a very small group (two others have joined him via this thread) who seems to always be up in arms or irked about something.


I hate the refrain: "let the man do his job." What does that mean exactly? At what point do we have permission to be critical? Once again, nobody is suggesting CMA be fired. We are merely expressing concern with the recruiting to date.

I equally dislike the refrain, shut up bc the coach "knows a lot more about how to win basketball games and build a winning program than any of us do." If memory serves me correctly, Dink, that was your line with Lav when a number of us started to see the writing on the wall and voiced our concern. By that logic, most of us could never criticize a coach.

I appreciate that CMA has been a winner with a proven track record. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't sound the alarm bells when we recognize a problem. As you rightly point out, SJU is a tough gig. It's much easier to draw top talent at Arkansas than it is here. UAB is not comparable bc the competition is far weaker. Even Missouri was a far easier gig. As I've repeatedly said, the jury is out as to whether CMA -- who has no ties to the East Coast -- will be able to recruit effectively enough to win. There is no question that the man can coach, but that doesn't really set him apart in our league.

Finally, we face a real "chicken or the egg" conundrum. You say wee need to win before we can get top talent, but we need top talent to win. As far as the program has fallen and as much of a disaster as the previous regime was, Mullin (mostly through Matt) successfully recruited his share of four and even five star kids . See, e.g., Keita, Steere, Ponds, Simon, Figueroa, LoVett, Heron, Yakwe, and Owens. And if you want to really compare apples to apples, Mullin's second year team included the following recruits: Ponds, LoVett, Sima (solid three star recruit who folks were ecstatic about when we signed him), Yakwe, Simon, Clark, Mussini, Owens, Freudenberg, Ahmed (JUCO All American) and Elison (solid three star recruit with a top pedigree).

Now you will undoubtedly respond that a number of these recruits didn't pan out. That's not my point. There is no question Mullin's first two classes were more highly regarded than the current regime's -- I'll concede that , through no fault of his own, CMA got a very late start recruiting his first class. Also, I have little doubt that Bobby Hurley would have recruited far better had he chosen to come.

I get it that you're tired of hearing the negativity, particularly when CMA has coached only one year and overachieved in that year. All of us want to dream that CMA will some how turn it around with a host of lightly recruited "good kids" with chips on their shoulders. Is it possible? Sure. Is it likely, heck no!

I'm not so young any more and am running out of patience. Enough with the five year plans!


So 20-ish wins a year and 3 NCAA appearances over the next 5-6 seasons wouldn't good be enough for you. Got it.

And thanks for proving my point that this isn't about recruiting, its about patience. The fact that you are "tired of 5 year plans" and are "running out of patience" just proves my point. This isn't about CMA and the kids he lands. Its about you wanting what you want, right now. That's fine. You are entitled to feel that way. But again, pony up the $$$$ it takes for the facilities we need to compete and 'extra' benefits the top kids get, or you all should probably stop publicly whining about the timeline required to take to bring Lazarus back from the grave.


Huh? I never said 20 wins a year and three ncaas over the next five or six years wouldn’t be good enough for me. Not sure where you got that. Where we apparently disagree is whether that will happen with the current recruiting trajectory. We’re picked near the bottom of the Big East this year and that is unlikely to change without an infusion of talent.

My remarks about patience and five year plans referred to our perpetual rebuilding and my frustrations. Are you familiar with Stalin’s five year plans? I’ll clue you in - - They lasted more than five years and nothing was accomplished. We’ve made two NCAAs in the last 17 years. Your point, whatever it was, is hardly proven.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Mike Zaun

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Mike Anderson - Recruiting, Coaching, Etc. 3 months 1 week ago #396106

  • redmannorth
  • redmannorth's Avatar
  • Away
  • Posts: 4190
  • Thank you received: 3809

Boo Harvey wrote:

SJUFAN2 wrote:

Boo Harvey wrote:

MJDinkins wrote:

SJUFAN2 wrote:

Mike Zaun wrote: If it works and we're making tourneys then of course I'd be happy and have a change of heart. But it's like hitting the same number twice in roulette vs. red or black. The red and black bets are much better odds (4 star kids) vs. having to hit numbers (3 star kids). One is more sustainable than the other. The odds are simply better which is why your pre-season ranking will be as good as your players are. It's not me feeling a certain way, it's just the model that is proven to succeed vs. the model that mostly does not succeed save for exceptions. I prefer the one that is proven to succeed which is a good coach (CMA) plus good recruiting (not proven yet).


Except, you are wrong. Its not like roulette. His way DOES work.
CMA has a .642 winning % in his career.
He's never had a losing record in 18 seasons. Not one. Not even in his first year here.
In 17 seasons before coming here, he'd been to 9 NCAA tournaments and 3 NIT's.

The issue here isn't recruiting. It's impatience. Some of you guys just want results Today. I get it, but you aren't getting them. STJ isn't a premiere destination. Kids today look at us as irrelevant. As a Mom & Pop/bottom feeder program. The top kids aren't going to non elite programs without $$$. We've got no history to sell them, not $$ to offer and shitty facilities (outside of the handful of games we play at MSG).
So I ask again...
Why would a top 80-100 kid want to come here when he's got offers from better schools, more successful programs, and $$$ on the table from boosters and sneaker execs?

You should probably accept that they just aren't coming here until we improve in one of those categories and move on, but you won't. Instead we'll have to hear about what you guys deem as acceptable recruiting ad nauseum, at least until the results on the court either shut you all up, or they force CMA out.

Let the man do his job. He's been fine so far and he knows a lot more about how to win basketball games and build a winning program than any of us do.


He's the ring leader amongst a very small group (two others have joined him via this thread) who seems to always be up in arms or irked about something.


I hate the refrain: "let the man do his job." What does that mean exactly? At what point do we have permission to be critical? Once again, nobody is suggesting CMA be fired. We are merely expressing concern with the recruiting to date.

I equally dislike the refrain, shut up bc the coach "knows a lot more about how to win basketball games and build a winning program than any of us do." If memory serves me correctly, Dink, that was your line with Lav when a number of us started to see the writing on the wall and voiced our concern. By that logic, most of us could never criticize a coach.

I appreciate that CMA has been a winner with a proven track record. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't sound the alarm bells when we recognize a problem. As you rightly point out, SJU is a tough gig. It's much easier to draw top talent at Arkansas than it is here. UAB is not comparable bc the competition is far weaker. Even Missouri was a far easier gig. As I've repeatedly said, the jury is out as to whether CMA -- who has no ties to the East Coast -- will be able to recruit effectively enough to win. There is no question that the man can coach, but that doesn't really set him apart in our league.

Finally, we face a real "chicken or the egg" conundrum. You say wee need to win before we can get top talent, but we need top talent to win. As far as the program has fallen and as much of a disaster as the previous regime was, Mullin (mostly through Matt) successfully recruited his share of four and even five star kids . See, e.g., Keita, Steere, Ponds, Simon, Figueroa, LoVett, Heron, Yakwe, and Owens. And if you want to really compare apples to apples, Mullin's second year team included the following recruits: Ponds, LoVett, Sima (solid three star recruit who folks were ecstatic about when we signed him), Yakwe, Simon, Clark, Mussini, Owens, Freudenberg, Ahmed (JUCO All American) and Elison (solid three star recruit with a top pedigree).

Now you will undoubtedly respond that a number of these recruits didn't pan out. That's not my point. There is no question Mullin's first two classes were more highly regarded than the current regime's -- I'll concede that , through no fault of his own, CMA got a very late start recruiting his first class. Also, I have little doubt that Bobby Hurley would have recruited far better had he chosen to come.

I get it that you're tired of hearing the negativity, particularly when CMA has coached only one year and overachieved in that year. All of us want to dream that CMA will some how turn it around with a host of lightly recruited "good kids" with chips on their shoulders. Is it possible? Sure. Is it likely, heck no!

I'm not so young any more and am running out of patience. Enough with the five year plans!


So 20-ish wins a year and 3 NCAA appearances over the next 5-6 seasons wouldn't good be enough for you. Got it.

And thanks for proving my point that this isn't about recruiting, its about patience. The fact that you are "tired of 5 year plans" and are "running out of patience" just proves my point. This isn't about CMA and the kids he lands. Its about you wanting what you want, right now. That's fine. You are entitled to feel that way. But again, pony up the $$$$ it takes for the facilities we need to compete and 'extra' benefits the top kids get, or you all should probably stop publicly whining about the timeline required to take to bring Lazarus back from the grave.


Huh? I never said 20 wins a year and three ncaas over the next five or six years wouldn’t be good enough for me. Not sure where you got that. Where we apparently disagree is whether that will happen with the current recruiting trajectory. We’re picked near the bottom of the Big East this year and that is unlikely to change without an infusion of talent.

My remarks about patience and five year plans referred to our perpetual rebuilding and my frustrations. Are you familiar with Stalin’s five year plans? I’ll clue you in - - They lasted more than five years and nothing was accomplished. We’ve made two NCAAs in the last 17 years. Your point, whatever it was, is hardly proven.


Our last three coaches, I need not remind you, Norm never had a Division 1 Head Coaching job and had a terrible loosing record in Division 3, Lavin was let go from UCLA and had been out of coaching for 6 years and Mullin had never been a head coach at any level. Those 3 are a very far cry from CMA who has been a head coach at 4 schools now , has never had a loosing record in all that time, one of only 4 such coaches, has a proven system and runs a clean upright ship where the inmates don’t run the system.
Has his recruiting been great to date no it has not been, has it been poor no it has not been poor at all. As an Arkansas poster correctly pointed out his recruiting is not sexy but from where I sit it is solid for sure with good kids and at the positions we need.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Section3, Monte, Joe, RedStormRising, Class of 72, TX Redman, shamsman2, L J S A, Eric, Patrick C ripdumaine and 3 other people also said thanks.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Mike Anderson - Recruiting, Coaching, Etc. 3 months 1 week ago #396107

  • SJUFAN2
  • SJUFAN2's Avatar
  • Offline
  • Posts: 1496
  • Thank you received: 1437

Boo Harvey wrote:
Huh? I never said 20 wins a year and three ncaas over the next five or six years wouldn’t be good enough for me. Not sure where you got that.


Sure you did. And you repeat it every time you complain about his recruiting.
CMA wins about 20 games a season on average.
He's gone to the NCAA tournament in more than 50% of the seasons he's been a HC anywhere.
He's done all that with this system and with this level of recruiting including in the SEC.
There is absolutely no reason to think he won't have similar results in the new BE. None. That means 3 NCAA trips in 5 or 6 years.
So every time you complain his recruiting isn't good enough you are saying that what he's done through his career isn't good enough.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Moderators: mkras99SJUFAN2espkengmanlawmanfankranmarsOhioFanotisredmannorthKnight