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Mike Anderson - Recruiting, Coaching, Etc. 3 months 1 week ago #396070

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My two cents... rankings and stars mean very little outside the top say 75 kids on any given year. Anyone on this board can look at a top 75 kid and know that he is a player. After that you, me, Jeff Goodman, Corey Evans Etc.. could not tell if a kid who is ranked 150 or unranked will turn out better than a kid who is ranked 76. These guys evaluate a couple of tournaments where a kid can get insanely hot ( which is how we wound up with McGriff btw) and boom the kid has an inflated ranking. The real skill is the evaluators who track a kids progress and can spot the little things about a kid that will make him a successful college player. Mike Anderson and staff do possess that skill which is a great thing. If the deck was re shuffled what do you think Champagnie would be ranked based off of his performance last year? Would we love to get more top 50 players? Sure.. but let's not act as if historically we always have . :)
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Mike Anderson - Recruiting, Coaching, Etc. 3 months 1 week ago #396071

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Happy wrote: These guys evaluate a couple of tournaments where a kid can get insanely hot ( which is how we wound up with McGriff btw) and boom the kid has an inflated ranking. The real skill is the evaluators who track a kids progress and can spot the little things about a kid that will make him a successful college player. Mike Anderson and staff do possess that skill which is a great thing.


Based on your post, sounds like they may not have exercised that skill with McGriff. :silly:

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Mike Anderson - Recruiting, Coaching, Etc. 3 months 1 week ago #396072

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Boo Harvey wrote:

Happy wrote: These guys evaluate a couple of tournaments where a kid can get insanely hot ( which is how we wound up with McGriff btw) and boom the kid has an inflated ranking. The real skill is the evaluators who track a kids progress and can spot the little things about a kid that will make him a successful college player. Mike Anderson and staff do possess that skill which is a great thing.


Based on your post, sounds like they may not have exercised that skill with McGriff. :silly:


they saw something they liked when they watched him in a tournament and based off of that and circumstance ( filling out a roster ) they nabbed him. I haven't seen him play yet but fingers crossed he is the real deal and at the very least I like the attitude he displays on social media. He has a real underdog mentality which I happen to love :)
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Mike Anderson - Recruiting, Coaching, Etc. 3 months 1 week ago #396074

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SJUFAN2 wrote:

Mike Zaun wrote: If it works and we're making tourneys then of course I'd be happy and have a change of heart. But it's like hitting the same number twice in roulette vs. red or black. The red and black bets are much better odds (4 star kids) vs. having to hit numbers (3 star kids). One is more sustainable than the other. The odds are simply better which is why your pre-season ranking will be as good as your players are. It's not me feeling a certain way, it's just the model that is proven to succeed vs. the model that mostly does not succeed save for exceptions. I prefer the one that is proven to succeed which is a good coach (CMA) plus good recruiting (not proven yet).


Except, you are wrong. Its not like roulette. His way DOES work.
CMA has a .642 winning % in his career.
He's never had a losing record in 18 seasons. Not one. Not even in his first year here.
In 17 seasons before coming here, he'd been to 9 NCAA tournaments and 3 NIT's.

The issue here isn't recruiting. It's impatience. Some of you guys just want results Today. I get it, but you aren't getting them. STJ isn't a premiere destination. Kids today look at us as irrelevant. As a Mom & Pop/bottom feeder program. The top kids aren't going to non elite programs without $$$. We've got no history to sell them, not $$ to offer and shitty facilities (outside of the handful of games we play at MSG).
So I ask again...
Why would a top 80-100 kid want to come here when he's got offers from better schools, more successful programs, and $$$ on the table from boosters and sneaker execs?

You should probably accept that they just aren't coming here until we improve in one of those categories and move on, but you won't. Instead we'll have to hear about what you guys deem as acceptable recruiting ad nauseum, at least until the results on the court either shut you all up, or they force CMA out.

Let the man do his job. He's been fine so far and he knows a lot more about how to win basketball games and build a winning program than any of us do.


He's the ring leader amongst a very small group (two others have joined him via this thread) who seems to always be up in arms or irked about something.
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Mike Anderson - Recruiting, Coaching, Etc. 3 months 1 week ago #396077

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MJDinkins wrote:

SJUFAN2 wrote:

Mike Zaun wrote: If it works and we're making tourneys then of course I'd be happy and have a change of heart. But it's like hitting the same number twice in roulette vs. red or black. The red and black bets are much better odds (4 star kids) vs. having to hit numbers (3 star kids). One is more sustainable than the other. The odds are simply better which is why your pre-season ranking will be as good as your players are. It's not me feeling a certain way, it's just the model that is proven to succeed vs. the model that mostly does not succeed save for exceptions. I prefer the one that is proven to succeed which is a good coach (CMA) plus good recruiting (not proven yet).


Except, you are wrong. Its not like roulette. His way DOES work.
CMA has a .642 winning % in his career.
He's never had a losing record in 18 seasons. Not one. Not even in his first year here.
In 17 seasons before coming here, he'd been to 9 NCAA tournaments and 3 NIT's.

The issue here isn't recruiting. It's impatience. Some of you guys just want results Today. I get it, but you aren't getting them. STJ isn't a premiere destination. Kids today look at us as irrelevant. As a Mom & Pop/bottom feeder program. The top kids aren't going to non elite programs without $$$. We've got no history to sell them, not $$ to offer and shitty facilities (outside of the handful of games we play at MSG).
So I ask again...
Why would a top 80-100 kid want to come here when he's got offers from better schools, more successful programs, and $$$ on the table from boosters and sneaker execs?

You should probably accept that they just aren't coming here until we improve in one of those categories and move on, but you won't. Instead we'll have to hear about what you guys deem as acceptable recruiting ad nauseum, at least until the results on the court either shut you all up, or they force CMA out.

Let the man do his job. He's been fine so far and he knows a lot more about how to win basketball games and build a winning program than any of us do.


He's the ring leader amongst a very small group (two others have joined him via this thread) who seems to always be up in arms or irked about something.


MJD - thanks for post
sounds like each of us have certain (perhaps fixed) personalities, styles, approaches - and what you see is what you will (forever?) get :)

Consider the talented
LLoyd Price
"PERSONALITY" 1959 R&B song
reached the top on some charts
(like basketball ranking #s =vary on different charts)

Over and over
I tried to prove my love to you
Over and over
What more can I do

Cause you'e got personality
Walk with personality
Talk with personality
Smile with personality

Charm, personality
Love, personality
And plus you've got
A great big heart

Over and over
My friends say I am a fool
But over and over
I'll be a fool for you

PS
post with personality
recruit with personality
rebound with personality etc.
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Mike Anderson - Recruiting, Coaching, Etc. 3 months 1 week ago #396082

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PharmDJohnnie11 wrote: If the school ponied up the cash to get Bobby Hurley, you don't think he would be able to land these types of players here? I do.


You should do a little more investigative work into the whole Bobby Hurley situation.
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Mike Anderson - Recruiting, Coaching, Etc. 3 months 1 week ago #396085

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MJDinkins wrote:

SJUFAN2 wrote:

Mike Zaun wrote: If it works and we're making tourneys then of course I'd be happy and have a change of heart. But it's like hitting the same number twice in roulette vs. red or black. The red and black bets are much better odds (4 star kids) vs. having to hit numbers (3 star kids). One is more sustainable than the other. The odds are simply better which is why your pre-season ranking will be as good as your players are. It's not me feeling a certain way, it's just the model that is proven to succeed vs. the model that mostly does not succeed save for exceptions. I prefer the one that is proven to succeed which is a good coach (CMA) plus good recruiting (not proven yet).


Except, you are wrong. Its not like roulette. His way DOES work.
CMA has a .642 winning % in his career.
He's never had a losing record in 18 seasons. Not one. Not even in his first year here.
In 17 seasons before coming here, he'd been to 9 NCAA tournaments and 3 NIT's.

The issue here isn't recruiting. It's impatience. Some of you guys just want results Today. I get it, but you aren't getting them. STJ isn't a premiere destination. Kids today look at us as irrelevant. As a Mom & Pop/bottom feeder program. The top kids aren't going to non elite programs without $$$. We've got no history to sell them, not $$ to offer and shitty facilities (outside of the handful of games we play at MSG).
So I ask again...
Why would a top 80-100 kid want to come here when he's got offers from better schools, more successful programs, and $$$ on the table from boosters and sneaker execs?

You should probably accept that they just aren't coming here until we improve in one of those categories and move on, but you won't. Instead we'll have to hear about what you guys deem as acceptable recruiting ad nauseum, at least until the results on the court either shut you all up, or they force CMA out.

Let the man do his job. He's been fine so far and he knows a lot more about how to win basketball games and build a winning program than any of us do.


He's the ring leader amongst a very small group (two others have joined him via this thread) who seems to always be up in arms or irked about something.


I hate the refrain: "let the man do his job." What does that mean exactly? At what point do we have permission to be critical? Once again, nobody is suggesting CMA be fired. We are merely expressing concern with the recruiting to date.

I equally dislike the refrain, shut up bc the coach "knows a lot more about how to win basketball games and build a winning program than any of us do." If memory serves me correctly, Dink, that was your line with Lav when a number of us started to see the writing on the wall and voiced our concern. By that logic, most of us could never criticize a coach.

I appreciate that CMA has been a winner with a proven track record. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't sound the alarm bells when we recognize a problem. As you rightly point out, SJU is a tough gig. It's much easier to draw top talent at Arkansas than it is here. UAB is not comparable bc the competition is far weaker. Even Missouri was a far easier gig. As I've repeatedly said, the jury is out as to whether CMA -- who has no ties to the East Coast -- will be able to recruit effectively enough to win. There is no question that the man can coach, but that doesn't really set him apart in our league.

Finally, we face a real "chicken or the egg" conundrum. You say wee need to win before we can get top talent, but we need top talent to win. As far as the program has fallen and as much of a disaster as the previous regime was, Mullin (mostly through Matt) successfully recruited his share of four and even five star kids . See, e.g., Keita, Steere, Ponds, Simon, Figueroa, LoVett, Heron, Yakwe, and Owens. And if you want to really compare apples to apples, Mullin's second year team included the following recruits: Ponds, LoVett, Sima (solid three star recruit who folks were ecstatic about when we signed him), Yakwe, Simon, Clark, Mussini, Owens, Freudenberg, Ahmed (JUCO All American) and Elison (solid three star recruit with a top pedigree).

Now you will undoubtedly respond that a number of these recruits didn't pan out. That's not my point. There is no question Mullin's first two classes were more highly regarded than the current regime's -- I'll concede that , through no fault of his own, CMA got a very late start recruiting his first class. Also, I have little doubt that Bobby Hurley would have recruited far better had he chosen to come.

I get it that you're tired of hearing the negativity, particularly when CMA has coached only one year and overachieved in that year. All of us want to dream that CMA will some how turn it around with a host of lightly recruited "good kids" with chips on their shoulders. Is it possible? Sure. Is it likely, heck no!

I'm not so young any more and am running out of patience. Enough with the five year plans!
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Mike Anderson - Recruiting, Coaching, Etc. 3 months 1 week ago #396086

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Boo Harvey wrote:

MJDinkins wrote:

SJUFAN2 wrote:

Mike Zaun wrote: If it works and we're making tourneys then of course I'd be happy and have a change of heart. But it's like hitting the same number twice in roulette vs. red or black. The red and black bets are much better odds (4 star kids) vs. having to hit numbers (3 star kids). One is more sustainable than the other. The odds are simply better which is why your pre-season ranking will be as good as your players are. It's not me feeling a certain way, it's just the model that is proven to succeed vs. the model that mostly does not succeed save for exceptions. I prefer the one that is proven to succeed which is a good coach (CMA) plus good recruiting (not proven yet).


Except, you are wrong. Its not like roulette. His way DOES work.
CMA has a .642 winning % in his career.
He's never had a losing record in 18 seasons. Not one. Not even in his first year here.
In 17 seasons before coming here, he'd been to 9 NCAA tournaments and 3 NIT's.

The issue here isn't recruiting. It's impatience. Some of you guys just want results Today. I get it, but you aren't getting them. STJ isn't a premiere destination. Kids today look at us as irrelevant. As a Mom & Pop/bottom feeder program. The top kids aren't going to non elite programs without $$$. We've got no history to sell them, not $$ to offer and shitty facilities (outside of the handful of games we play at MSG).
So I ask again...
Why would a top 80-100 kid want to come here when he's got offers from better schools, more successful programs, and $$$ on the table from boosters and sneaker execs?

You should probably accept that they just aren't coming here until we improve in one of those categories and move on, but you won't. Instead we'll have to hear about what you guys deem as acceptable recruiting ad nauseum, at least until the results on the court either shut you all up, or they force CMA out.

Let the man do his job. He's been fine so far and he knows a lot more about how to win basketball games and build a winning program than any of us do.


He's the ring leader amongst a very small group (two others have joined him via this thread) who seems to always be up in arms or irked about something.


I hate the refrain: "let the man do his job." What does that mean exactly? At what point do we have permission to be critical? Once again, nobody is suggesting CMA be fired. We are merely expressing concern with the recruiting to date.

I equally dislike the refrain, shut up bc the coach "knows a lot more about how to win basketball games and build a winning program than any of us do." If memory serves me correctly, Dink, that was your line with Lav when a number of us started to see the writing on the wall and voiced our concern. By that logic, most of us could never criticize a coach.

I appreciate that CMA has been a winner with a proven track record. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't sound the alarm bells when we recognize a problem. As you rightly point out, SJU is a tough gig. It's much easier to draw top talent at Arkansas than it is here. UAB is not comparable bc the competition is far weaker. Even Missouri was a far easier gig. As I've repeatedly said, the jury is out as to whether CMA -- who has no ties to the East Coast -- will be able to recruit effectively enough to win. There is no question that the man can coach, but that doesn't really set him apart in our league.

Finally, we face a real "chicken or the egg" conundrum. You say wee need to win before we can get top talent, but we need top talent to win. As far as the program has fallen and as much of a disaster as the previous regime was, Mullin (mostly through Matt) successfully recruited his share of four and even five star kids . See, e.g., Keita, Steere, Ponds, Simon, Figueroa, LoVett, Heron, Yakwe, and Owens. And if you want to really compare apples to apples, Mullin's second year team included the following recruits: Ponds, LoVett, Sima (solid three star recruit who folks were ecstatic about when we signed him), Yakwe, Simon, Clark, Mussini, Owens, Freudenberg, Ahmed (JUCO All American) and Elison (solid three star recruit with a top pedigree).

Now you will undoubtedly respond that a number of these recruits didn't pan out. That's not my point. There is no question Mullin's first two classes were more highly regarded than the current regime's -- I'll concede that , through no fault of his own, CMA got a very late start recruiting his first class. Also, I have little doubt that Bobby Hurley would have recruited far better had he chosen to come.

I get it that you're tired of hearing the negativity, particularly when CMA has coached only one year and overachieved in that year. All of us want to dream that CMA will some how turn it around with a host of lightly recruited "good kids" with chips on their shoulders. Is it possible? Sure. Is it likely, heck no!

I'm not so young any more and am running out of patience. Enough with the five year plans!


I sort of get the concern (only slightly), but it's far, far too early to consistently harp on it and bitch about it at every turn which is what a few of y'all are doing. Maybe, not as much as the "ring leader," but you get the picture.

I'm not young either, and the patience can be tested at times. But I'm still willing to give any coach at least 3 years unless they have shown they're completely incompetent early on.

No coach is above criticism, but a lot of the criticism is unwarranted at this point in time. And, to pound home the same point often becomes tiring.

Give it 3 years and if we're not winning, along with not consistently garnering commitments from top 100 recruits, then "pound" away.
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Mike Anderson - Recruiting, Coaching, Etc. 3 months 1 week ago #396087

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Boo Harvey wrote:

MJDinkins wrote:

SJUFAN2 wrote:

Mike Zaun wrote: If it works and we're making tourneys then of course I'd be happy and have a change of heart. But it's like hitting the same number twice in roulette vs. red or black. The red and black bets are much better odds (4 star kids) vs. having to hit numbers (3 star kids). One is more sustainable than the other. The odds are simply better which is why your pre-season ranking will be as good as your players are. It's not me feeling a certain way, it's just the model that is proven to succeed vs. the model that mostly does not succeed save for exceptions. I prefer the one that is proven to succeed which is a good coach (CMA) plus good recruiting (not proven yet).


Except, you are wrong. Its not like roulette. His way DOES work.
CMA has a .642 winning % in his career.
He's never had a losing record in 18 seasons. Not one. Not even in his first year here.
In 17 seasons before coming here, he'd been to 9 NCAA tournaments and 3 NIT's.

The issue here isn't recruiting. It's impatience. Some of you guys just want results Today. I get it, but you aren't getting them. STJ isn't a premiere destination. Kids today look at us as irrelevant. As a Mom & Pop/bottom feeder program. The top kids aren't going to non elite programs without $$$. We've got no history to sell them, not $$ to offer and shitty facilities (outside of the handful of games we play at MSG).
So I ask again...
Why would a top 80-100 kid want to come here when he's got offers from better schools, more successful programs, and $$$ on the table from boosters and sneaker execs?

You should probably accept that they just aren't coming here until we improve in one of those categories and move on, but you won't. Instead we'll have to hear about what you guys deem as acceptable recruiting ad nauseum, at least until the results on the court either shut you all up, or they force CMA out.

Let the man do his job. He's been fine so far and he knows a lot more about how to win basketball games and build a winning program than any of us do.


He's the ring leader amongst a very small group (two others have joined him via this thread) who seems to always be up in arms or irked about something.


I hate the refrain: "let the man do his job." What does that mean exactly? At what point do we have permission to be critical? Once again, nobody is suggesting CMA be fired. We are merely expressing concern with the recruiting to date.

I equally dislike the refrain, shut up bc the coach "knows a lot more about how to win basketball games and build a winning program than any of us do." If memory serves me correctly, Dink, that was your line with Lav when a number of us started to see the writing on the wall and voiced our concern. By that logic, most of us could never criticize a coach.

I appreciate that CMA has been a winner with a proven track record. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't sound the alarm bells when we recognize a problem. As you rightly point out, SJU is a tough gig. It's much easier to draw top talent at Arkansas than it is here. UAB is not comparable bc the competition is far weaker. Even Missouri was a far easier gig. As I've repeatedly said, the jury is out as to whether CMA -- who has no ties to the East Coast -- will be able to recruit effectively enough to win. There is no question that the man can coach, but that doesn't really set him apart in our league.

Finally, we face a real "chicken or the egg" conundrum. You say wee need to win before we can get top talent, but we need top talent to win. As far as the program has fallen and as much of a disaster as the previous regime was, Mullin (mostly through Matt) successfully recruited his share of four and even five star kids . See, e.g., Keita, Steere, Ponds, Simon, Figueroa, LoVett, Heron, Yakwe, and Owens. And if you want to really compare apples to apples, Mullin's second year team included the following recruits: Ponds, LoVett, Sima (solid three star recruit who folks were ecstatic about when we signed him), Yakwe, Simon, Clark, Mussini, Owens, Freudenberg, Ahmed (JUCO All American) and Elison (solid three star recruit with a top pedigree).

Now you will undoubtedly respond that a number of these recruits didn't pan out. That's not my point. There is no question Mullin's first two classes were more highly regarded than the current regime's -- I'll concede that , through no fault of his own, CMA got a very late start recruiting his first class. Also, I have little doubt that Bobby Hurley would have recruited far better had he chosen to come.

I get it that you're tired of hearing the negativity, particularly when CMA has coached only one year and overachieved in that year. All of us want to dream that CMA will some how turn it around with a host of lightly recruited "good kids" with chips on their shoulders. Is it possible? Sure. Is it likely, heck no!

I'm not so young any more and am running out of patience. Enough with the five year plans!


So 20-ish wins a year and 3 NCAA appearances over the next 5-6 seasons wouldn't good be enough for you. Got it.

And thanks for proving my point that this isn't about recruiting, its about patience. The fact that you are "tired of 5 year plans" and are "running out of patience" just proves my point. This isn't about CMA and the kids he lands. Its about you wanting what you want, right now. That's fine. You are entitled to feel that way. But again, pony up the $$$$ it takes for the facilities we need to compete and 'extra' benefits the top kids get, or you all should probably stop publicly whining about the timeline required to take to bring Lazarus back from the grave.
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Mike Anderson - Recruiting, Coaching, Etc. 3 months 1 week ago #396088

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What do the last several pages have to do with the topic of Alden Applewhite? Nothing ! Sure hope Applewhite or anybody close to him has not been following this thread.

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