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(POST GAME) Butler, Tues. Dec. 31, 7:30pm, FS-1, 970AM 8 months 3 weeks ago #370373

  • Mike Zaun
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True that no one is born a great shooter...but I have to say it's very surprising that at the major D1 college basketball level so many players that have come through our doors seem to have lots of trouble knocking down even wide open 3's with regularity. When we get a guy like Mussini, LJ, Heron, or D'Lo it's refreshing. But they have been exceptions. It just seems every team even mid majors like Brown or Columbia find at least 1 guy who can really stroke it from 3 and it's almost definite when open. Dunn has missed many open 3's and Heron was so poor shooting the 3 in the several games before he was out, that opponents gave it to him all day. And he still missed. Not sure if he will be any different when he comes back but I hope so. If guys in D3 and low D1 are making open 3's I just don't understand players at this level not being able to. Nova, Creighton, Butler, etc. always seem to have 3-4 dead eye shooters. We need a guy who has a quick release and can get scorching 4/6 from 3 some games. Opponents know how weak shooting we are and they will probably start to pack it in the paint to prevent drives. That will make points extremely hard to come by. Right now the only way we score at a high level is off turnovers in transition. If we don't turn teams over a ton, we simply don't have the firepower offensively.

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(POST GAME) Butler, Tues. Dec. 31, 7:30pm, FS-1, 970AM 8 months 3 weeks ago #370375

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Monte wrote:

newsman13 wrote: The bottom line is you can't win games without shooters...and we have no shooters. We "solved" the free throw problem that killed us earlier in the year...so maybe.

I don't think anyone in the country defends as well as we do...but with no one who can shoot...we're toast.


LJ, Heron and Caraher can all shoot from beyond 3. Wish we ran more plays for Caraher to get him open, since he can’t create for himself. Champ has shown the ability to hit the open 3, and think Dunn has potential to be a good outside shooter with work. Butler defense gave him the open shot, which he couldn’t hit. If he can start nailing that shot with some regularity, then his drive becomes that much more effective. Think there’s some hope for our outside shooting. Need more work to be more consistent.


We run several sets throughout the game that produces the looks that we work for. Wide open shots like the one Dunn had in the corner at the end of the game. Gotta be able to hit those shots when the popcorn is popping and the hot dogs are turning. Mental thing at this point. Why do you think MA keeps saying “we’re a much better shooting team than we’ve shown.”?

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(POST GAME) Butler, Tues. Dec. 31, 7:30pm, FS-1, 970AM 8 months 3 weeks ago #370377

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Mike Zaun wrote: True that no one is born a great shooter...but I have to say it's very surprising that at the major D1 college basketball level so many players that have come through our doors seem to have lots of trouble knocking down even wide open 3's with regularity. When we get a guy like Mussini, LJ, Heron, or D'Lo it's refreshing. But they have been exceptions. It just seems every team even mid majors like Brown or Columbia find at least 1 guy who can really stroke it from 3 and it's almost definite when open. Dunn has missed many open 3's and Heron was so poor shooting the 3 in the several games before he was out, that opponents gave it to him all day. And he still missed. Not sure if he will be any different when he comes back but I hope so. If guys in D3 and low D1 are making open 3's I just don't understand players at this level not being able to. Nova, Creighton, Butler, etc. always seem to have 3-4 dead eye shooters. We need a guy who has a quick release and can get scorching 4/6 from 3 some games. Opponents know how weak shooting we are and they will probably start to pack it in the paint to prevent drives. That will make points extremely hard to come by. Right now the only way we score at a high level is off turnovers in transition. If we don't turn teams over a ton, we simply don't have the firepower offensively.


Of course shooters are born. Yes by practicing you can improve on your shooting but if you dont have it, you will never be great at it.

I will give you an example, Marcellus Earlington could shoot 1,000 3s a day and he will never be a great shooter. He is not born a natural shooter.

You come out of the womb a shooter.

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(POST GAME) Butler, Tues. Dec. 31, 7:30pm, FS-1, 970AM 8 months 3 weeks ago #370378

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Monte wrote:

newsman13 wrote: The bottom line is you can't win games without shooters...and we have no shooters. We "solved" the free throw problem that killed us earlier in the year...so maybe.

I don't think anyone in the country defends as well as we do...but with no one who can shoot...we're toast.


LJ, Heron and Caraher can all shoot from beyond 3. Wish we ran more plays for Caraher to get him open, since he can’t create for himself. Champ has shown the ability to hit the open 3, and think Dunn has potential to be a good outside shooter with work. Butler defense gave him the open shot, which he couldn’t hit. If he can start nailing that shot with some regularity, then his drive becomes that much more effective. Think there’s some hope for our outside shooting. Need more work to be more consistent.

Respect your opinion Mark, but not as optimistic re Dunn. Talking to local hoops guys who know him well, common view is he has never been a good shooter & hard to see him developing a consistent stroke.

Nothing would please me more to see that change & he may hit some threes occasionally, like Vermont crucial shot, but I just don’t see it. Slashing has always be his game. If he develops a better feel for driving and dishing that seems a more reasonable area of development imo.
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(POST GAME) Butler, Tues. Dec. 31, 7:30pm, FS-1, 970AM 8 months 3 weeks ago #370379

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Paultzman wrote:

Monte wrote:

newsman13 wrote: The bottom line is you can't win games without shooters...and we have no shooters. We "solved" the free throw problem that killed us earlier in the year...so maybe.

I don't think anyone in the country defends as well as we do...but with no one who can shoot...we're toast.


LJ, Heron and Caraher can all shoot from beyond 3. Wish we ran more plays for Caraher to get him open, since he can’t create for himself. Champ has shown the ability to hit the open 3, and think Dunn has potential to be a good outside shooter with work. Butler defense gave him the open shot, which he couldn’t hit. If he can start nailing that shot with some regularity, then his drive becomes that much more effective. Think there’s some hope for our outside shooting. Need more work to be more consistent.

Respect your opinion Mark, but not as optimistic re Dunn. Talking to local hoops guys who know him well, common view is he has never been a good shooter & hard to see him developing a consistent stroke.

Nothing would please me more to see that change & he may hit some threes occasionally, like Vermont crucial shot, but I just don’t see it. Slashing has always be his game. If he develops a better feel for driving and dishing that seems a more reasonable area of development imo.


Paultz, the question here, I think, is not if Dunn's a great shooter, we know he's probably not. The question is: on that last play who else was going to take that shot? Criticize Dunn for backing out, but since LJ passed the ball right back to him what else was he going to do but try and make something happen?

BTW did MA mention in his post game who that last play was drawn up for?
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(POST GAME) Butler, Tues. Dec. 31, 7:30pm, FS-1, 970AM 8 months 3 weeks ago #370380

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I would think that 3's are mostly muscle memory. If you're open and have anxiety under control, you should be able to make open 3's at this level consistently and probably even several contested ones every so often. Most of these guys have not only been playing their entire lives shooting around but also playing at a high level to make it this far. I wonder what the culprit is. It seems that when we have decent offense we have poor defense and when we have good defense we have poor offense. Need to get guys to put it all together. Recruit pure shooters who don't need a long time to get their shot off.

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(POST GAME) Butler, Tues. Dec. 31, 7:30pm, FS-1, 970AM 8 months 3 weeks ago #370385

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Section9 wrote:

Paultzman wrote:

Monte wrote:

newsman13 wrote: The bottom line is you can't win games without shooters...and we have no shooters. We "solved" the free throw problem that killed us earlier in the year...so maybe.

I don't think anyone in the country defends as well as we do...but with no one who can shoot...we're toast.


LJ, Heron and Caraher can all shoot from beyond 3. Wish we ran more plays for Caraher to get him open, since he can’t create for himself. Champ has shown the ability to hit the open 3, and think Dunn has potential to be a good outside shooter with work. Butler defense gave him the open shot, which he couldn’t hit. If he can start nailing that shot with some regularity, then his drive becomes that much more effective. Think there’s some hope for our outside shooting. Need more work to be more consistent.

Respect your opinion Mark, but not as optimistic re Dunn. Talking to local hoops guys who know him well, common view is he has never been a good shooter & hard to see him developing a consistent stroke.

Nothing would please me more to see that change & he may hit some threes occasionally, like Vermont crucial shot, but I just don’t see it. Slashing has always be his game. If he develops a better feel for driving and dishing that seems a more reasonable area of development imo.


Paultz, the question here, I think, is not if Dunn's a great shooter, we know he's probably not. The question is: on that last play who else was going to take that shot? Criticize Dunn for backing out, but since LJ passed the ball right back to him what else was he going to do but try and make something happen?

BTW did MA mention in his post game who that last play was drawn up for?

I was responding to Mark’s comment about Dunn’s possible shooting improvement, not the last shot. Elsewhere I agreed with another few posters re Dunn backing ball out, not who last play was designed for.

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(POST GAME) Butler, Tues. Dec. 31, 7:30pm, FS-1, 970AM 8 months 3 weeks ago #370386

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Section9 wrote:

Logen wrote:

Section9 wrote:

Paultzman wrote:

Logen wrote: After we squandered leads in previous games, many, including myself, talked about basketball being a game of runs and it is. So we had a tremendous 2nd half run, got a lead late and then couldn’t close it out. It’s about W’s and L’s and in my opinion there are no moral victories and that was a bad loss. Another example of us not knowing how to play with a lead. And I may be harsh but Dunn backing that ball out was a “me” play and I just don’t see it.


Great point on Dunn play, inexplicable.


Yeah, I get that but that's an NYC pg mentality. He wants the ball in the end. Seems we forgot what he did against wvu at the end. You've got to live with it, good or bad until this team has more offensive talent.


I did not comment on him having the ball, I commented on what he did with it. Having said that, In
don’t buy that “NYC guard” or having to live with poor decisions in the end game for a second. Just because someone wants the ball doesn’t mean they should have it. He made a good play against WVU but one play does not give him a free pass to do whatever he wants at the end of games. He scores because he is a volume shooter not because he is anything other than an average offensive player. Frankly and unfortunately, we have a team of them, including, up to now, Heron and Figueroa.
One last point, no way in hell did we lose that game because of the last play. I just thought he made a very poor decision and pointed it out.


Okay, on that last play who else was going to take that shot? Perhaps the play was drawn up for him. Frankly I don't think anybody on the floor, including LJ who was cold, wanted that responsibility, because he got the ball and gave it right back.

As we have both stated, we don't have the scorers right now. Maybe Heron when he comes back, maybe LJ if he wasn't in lala land, but that night Dunn was the man. Should he have backed the ball out, no, but that's the way it played out.

And BTW, he also tied the Vermont game for us on a last second shot in regulation, so he's got some cred in my book.


Again, did you even read my posts? I commented on what he DID, I never once commented on whether he should have had the ball. At least read and understand my point if you want to discuss something I post. And for the record, I am not a big fan of Dunn’s offensively but we are offensively challenged up and down the line so IMO we don’t have a “go to” guy. I am also not a fan of the “one guy, hero ball” at the end of games so I would rather stay in the team concept. Just my opinion.
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(POST GAME) Butler, Tues. Dec. 31, 7:30pm, FS-1, 970AM 8 months 3 weeks ago #370388

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(POST GAME) Butler, Tues. Dec. 31, 7:30pm, FS-1, 970AM 8 months 3 weeks ago #370389

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Logen wrote:

Section9 wrote:

Logen wrote:

Section9 wrote:

Paultzman wrote:

Logen wrote: After we squandered leads in previous games, many, including myself, talked about basketball being a game of runs and it is. So we had a tremendous 2nd half run, got a lead late and then couldn’t close it out. It’s about W’s and L’s and in my opinion there are no moral victories and that was a bad loss. Another example of us not knowing how to play with a lead. And I may be harsh but Dunn backing that ball out was a “me” play and I just don’t see it.


Great point on Dunn play, inexplicable.


Yeah, I get that but that's an NYC pg mentality. He wants the ball in the end. Seems we forgot what he did against wvu at the end. You've got to live with it, good or bad until this team has more offensive talent.


I did not comment on him having the ball, I commented on what he did with it. Having said that, In
don’t buy that “NYC guard” or having to live with poor decisions in the end game for a second. Just because someone wants the ball doesn’t mean they should have it. He made a good play against WVU but one play does not give him a free pass to do whatever he wants at the end of games. He scores because he is a volume shooter not because he is anything other than an average offensive player. Frankly and unfortunately, we have a team of them, including, up to now, Heron and Figueroa.
One last point, no way in hell did we lose that game because of the last play. I just thought he made a very poor decision and pointed it out.


Okay, on that last play who else was going to take that shot? Perhaps the play was drawn up for him. Frankly I don't think anybody on the floor, including LJ who was cold, wanted that responsibility, because he got the ball and gave it right back.

As we have both stated, we don't have the scorers right now. Maybe Heron when he comes back, maybe LJ if he wasn't in lala land, but that night Dunn was the man. Should he have backed the ball out, no, but that's the way it played out.

And BTW, he also tied the Vermont game for us on a last second shot in regulation, so he's got some cred in my book.


Again, did you even read my posts? I commented on what he DID, I never once commented on whether he should have had the ball. At least read and understand my point if you want to discuss something I post. And for the record, I am not a big fan of Dunn’s offensively but we are offensively challenged up and down the line so IMO we don’t have a “go to” guy. I am also not a fan of the “one guy, hero ball” at the end of games so I would rather stay in the team concept. Just my opinion.


Uhh, okay my reading comprehension is not up to your standards.

But, I get the team concept, so reread my posts, of the team on the floor for that last play who would you have run the play for?

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