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TOPIC: Off Season Tidbits

Off Season Tidbits 5 months 6 days ago #351935

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OLV72 wrote: Nice to read the off season tidbits without the obsession over Mullin the coach.


I’d rather obsess over tits than tidbits. The only fan who ever obsessed over Mullin no longer posts here and refers to our current coach as coach 3rd choice. Finally, please let us not be intimidated into never bringing up Chris Mullin the coach. Discuss with respect and objectivity. History is History.
All characters and events depicted in this post are entirely fictitious. Any similarity to actual events or persons, living or dead, is purely coincidental. 
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Off Season Tidbits 5 months 6 days ago #351936

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Class of 72 wrote:

OLV72 wrote: Nice to read the off season tidbits without the obsession over Mullin the coach.


I’d rather obsess over tits than tidbits. The only fan who ever obsessed over Mullin no longer posts here and refers to our current coach as coach 3rd choice. Finally, please let us not be intimidated into never bringing up Chris Mullin the coach. Discuss with respect and objectivity. History is History.

lets all just obsess over titbits
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Off Season Tidbits 5 months 6 days ago #351937

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otis wrote: In the real world does it really matter whether Mullin was a better coach than Norm ?
Lets look forward, not backward.

.


Can this then also apply to all those threads that go down memory lane and have nothing to do with the thread title ?
What's fair is fair no ?
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Off Season Tidbits 5 months 6 days ago #351938

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Class of 72 wrote:

OLV72 wrote: Nice to read the off season tidbits without the obsession over Mullin the coach.


I’d rather obsess over tits than tidbits. The only fan who ever obsessed over Mullin no longer posts here and refers to our current coach as coach 3rd choice. Finally, please let us not be intimidated into never bringing up Chris Mullin the coach. Discuss with respect and objectivity. History is History.


I thought this Board was ‘family entertainment’, you know, engaging with sports fanatics—numerous ‘old’ ones—and St. John’s fans?
Tsk-tsk.
Lol.

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Off Season Tidbits 5 months 6 days ago #351944

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NCJohnnie wrote: Class of 72 wrote: Those who actually saw him play will certainly remember but as I stated on the day he was announced his coaching record would be imbedded in St. John's basketball history. It's really a shame for all involved in the decision. He left with the worst Big East record in conference history for a St. John's coach (.27). Even Norm Roberts won .31% of his Big East. By contrast one the most criticized coachs in 25 years, Steve Lavin, won .57%. I don't know about web traffic here but never has a coach who accomplished so little gotten so much credit. Those that can't or couldn't separate the player from the coach are denying reality.

What's the point? I don't disagree with the need for a coaching change, but Mullin wasn't the worst and to compare him to Roberts is nuts. Mullin made the dance 1 out of 4 years and might well made it twice but for Lovett's injury/quit. Let's move on and try to take the high road for once.


Its subjective, but its also an interesting debate/dichotomy.

For me, Mullin is the greatest player in school history. Keep in mind, he did what he did BEFORE there was a 3 pt line in college ball. He is St John's basketball because of that, at least to my generation and most of those who saw his magic on the court.

He's also the worst coach we've ever had. His record was awful. His game management and substitutions were so inept as to be considered random. He couldn't build a competent staff. He didn't recruit and actually blew off a couple of key meetings last year with recruits who showed up on campus ready to commit.

To compare him to Norm Roberts is an insult to Norm Roberts. Mullin took over a team that had been to the he NCAA tournament the year before and proceeded to fail to achieve a .500 record in conference even once during his tenure. He never recruited an elite player and failed miserably in building and managing his staff. Roberts took over a team with no players and that was trying to climb out of the Pittsburgh sewer that Jarvis had left it in. Roberts was clearly in over his head and didn't have the cache as a coach to pull in recruits that would have turned things around quickly so he recruited a lot of 2&3 star kids with upside. Those kids went 21-12 (12-6) and made the NCAA tournament in Lavin's first year.

Norm Roberts was not a good coach. But he did try to do things the right way, he did work hard at recruiting and eventually brought in and developed enough talent to give his successor an easy first year. He did his job. He stemmed the bleeding on this program, and turned the ship around. Mullin's job was to build off Lavin's moderate success. He just didn't do that. Not in any way, shape, or form.

I'll always view Chris in a positive light. He's an Icon. He's the best player in my favorite programs semi-storied history. He's the face of the program. But he's also its worst coach. Its really not his fault, but its also not really much of a debate. He'd never coached before and had no idea what the job entailed. He never should have been hired in the first place. His heart was in the right place in taking the job but once he decided he wasn't going to out work every other coach in the league 24/7, 365 days a year he was doomed to failure.

I'm just glad he got out on a high note and before the shit hit the fan. And I pray we never hire a coach who takes his place on the bottom rung of St John's head coaches. That would be the end of this program.
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Off Season Tidbits 5 months 6 days ago #351951

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Moose wrote:

otis wrote: In the real world does it really matter whether Mullin was a better coach than Norm ?
Lets look forward, not backward.

.


Can this then also apply to all those threads that go down memory lane and have nothing to do with the thread title ?
What's fair is fair no ?


That depends who is posting, but you already knew that ;)

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Off Season Tidbits 5 months 6 days ago #351957

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SJUFAN2 wrote:

NCJohnnie wrote: Class of 72 wrote: Those who actually saw him play will certainly remember but as I stated on the day he was announced his coaching record would be imbedded in St. John's basketball history. It's really a shame for all involved in the decision. He left with the worst Big East record in conference history for a St. John's coach (.27). Even Norm Roberts won .31% of his Big East. By contrast one the most criticized coachs in 25 years, Steve Lavin, won .57%. I don't know about web traffic here but never has a coach who accomplished so little gotten so much credit. Those that can't or couldn't separate the player from the coach are denying reality.

What's the point? I don't disagree with the need for a coaching change, but Mullin wasn't the worst and to compare him to Roberts is nuts. Mullin made the dance 1 out of 4 years and might well made it twice but for Lovett's injury/quit. Let's move on and try to take the high road for once.


Its subjective, but its also an interesting debate/dichotomy.

For me, Mullin is the greatest player in school history. Keep in mind, he did what he did BEFORE there was a 3 pt line in college ball. He is St John's basketball because of that, at least to my generation and most of those who saw his magic on the court.

He's also the worst coach we've ever had. His record was awful. His game management and substitutions were so inept as to be considered random. He couldn't build a competent staff. He didn't recruit and actually blew off a couple of key meetings last year with recruits who showed up on campus ready to commit.

To compare him to Norm Roberts is an insult to Norm Roberts. Mullin took over a team that had been to the he NCAA tournament the year before and proceeded to fail to achieve a .500 record in conference even once during his tenure. He never recruited an elite player and failed miserably in building and managing his staff. Roberts took over a team with no players and that was trying to climb out of the Pittsburgh sewer that Jarvis had left it in. Roberts was clearly in over his head and didn't have the cache as a coach to pull in recruits that would have turned things around quickly so he recruited a lot of 2&3 star kids with upside. Those kids went 21-12 (12-6) and made the NCAA tournament in Lavin's first year.

Norm Roberts was not a good coach. But he did try to do things the right way, he did work hard at recruiting and eventually brought in and developed enough talent to give his successor an easy first year. He did his job. He stemmed the bleeding on this program, and turned the ship around. Mullin's job was to build off Lavin's moderate success. He just didn't do that. Not in any way, shape, or form.

I'll always view Chris in a positive light. He's an Icon. He's the best player in my favorite programs semi-storied history. He's the face of the program. But he's also its worst coach. Its really not his fault, but its also not really much of a debate. He'd never coached before and had no idea what the job entailed. He never should have been hired in the first place. His heart was in the right place in taking the job but once he decided he wasn't going to out work every other coach in the league 24/7, 365 days a year he was doomed to failure.

I'm just glad he got out on a high note and before the shit hit the fan. And I pray we never hire a coach who takes his place on the bottom rung of St John's head coaches. That would be the end of this program.


Mullin the worst coach? This from someone who went kicking and screaming off the Norm bandwagon. Maybe this is redemption.
Mullin was a great face of the program. He made us proud to root for his teams. He took a team that was in the toilet to the NCAA tournament.
Was he the greatest coach? That's not the argument. Let's not go through the litany of "misdeeds" again. There's no way he was the worst.
If there was an internet back in the day, maybe Carnesecca would have qualified as the worst. He fought tooth and nail against the Redmen joining the Big East. He cemented the program into the mediocrity it is today. He cemented the fates of those who followed him, including Anderson. Come on. We go to the final four (once) and all he could recruit the following year was Marco Baldi (who had eligibility issues). He rescinded Gary Payton's scholarship in favor of someone named Broadnax. He left Akeem Olajuwon who wanted to come here waiting at Kennedy Airport. Two hall of famers who could have brought us championships down the drain. He lobbied for Brian Mahoney to replace him. It goes on and on.
Looie had what Mullin had. Both were great faces of the program...two men we could be proud of...but not great coaches.

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Off Season Tidbits 5 months 6 days ago #351961

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newsman13 wrote:

SJUFAN2 wrote:

NCJohnnie wrote: Class of 72 wrote: Those who actually saw him play will certainly remember but as I stated on the day he was announced his coaching record would be imbedded in St. John's basketball history. It's really a shame for all involved in the decision. He left with the worst Big East record in conference history for a St. John's coach (.27). Even Norm Roberts won .31% of his Big East. By contrast one the most criticized coachs in 25 years, Steve Lavin, won .57%. I don't know about web traffic here but never has a coach who accomplished so little gotten so much credit. Those that can't or couldn't separate the player from the coach are denying reality.

What's the point? I don't disagree with the need for a coaching change, but Mullin wasn't the worst and to compare him to Roberts is nuts. Mullin made the dance 1 out of 4 years and might well made it twice but for Lovett's injury/quit. Let's move on and try to take the high road for once.


Its subjective, but its also an interesting debate/dichotomy.

For me, Mullin is the greatest player in school history. Keep in mind, he did what he did BEFORE there was a 3 pt line in college ball. He is St John's basketball because of that, at least to my generation and most of those who saw his magic on the court.

He's also the worst coach we've ever had. His record was awful. His game management and substitutions were so inept as to be considered random. He couldn't build a competent staff. He didn't recruit and actually blew off a couple of key meetings last year with recruits who showed up on campus ready to commit.

To compare him to Norm Roberts is an insult to Norm Roberts. Mullin took over a team that had been to the he NCAA tournament the year before and proceeded to fail to achieve a .500 record in conference even once during his tenure. He never recruited an elite player and failed miserably in building and managing his staff. Roberts took over a team with no players and that was trying to climb out of the Pittsburgh sewer that Jarvis had left it in. Roberts was clearly in over his head and didn't have the cache as a coach to pull in recruits that would have turned things around quickly so he recruited a lot of 2&3 star kids with upside. Those kids went 21-12 (12-6) and made the NCAA tournament in Lavin's first year.

Norm Roberts was not a good coach. But he did try to do things the right way, he did work hard at recruiting and eventually brought in and developed enough talent to give his successor an easy first year. He did his job. He stemmed the bleeding on this program, and turned the ship around. Mullin's job was to build off Lavin's moderate success. He just didn't do that. Not in any way, shape, or form.

I'll always view Chris in a positive light. He's an Icon. He's the best player in my favorite programs semi-storied history. He's the face of the program. But he's also its worst coach. Its really not his fault, but its also not really much of a debate. He'd never coached before and had no idea what the job entailed. He never should have been hired in the first place. His heart was in the right place in taking the job but once he decided he wasn't going to out work every other coach in the league 24/7, 365 days a year he was doomed to failure.

I'm just glad he got out on a high note and before the shit hit the fan. And I pray we never hire a coach who takes his place on the bottom rung of St John's head coaches. That would be the end of this program.


Mullin the worst coach? This from someone who went kicking and screaming off the Norm bandwagon. Maybe this is redemption.
Mullin was a great face of the program. He made us proud to root for his teams. He took a team that was in the toilet to the NCAA tournament.
Was he the greatest coach? That's not the argument. Let's not go through the litany of "misdeeds" again. There's no way he was the worst.
If there was an internet back in the day, maybe Carnesecca would have qualified as the worst. He fought tooth and nail against the Redmen joining the Big East. He cemented the program into the mediocrity it is today. He cemented the fates of those who followed him, including Anderson. Come on. We go to the final four (once) and all he could recruit the following year was Marco Baldi (who had eligibility issues). He rescinded Gary Payton's scholarship in favor of someone named Broadnax. He left Akeem Olajuwon who wanted to come here waiting at Kennedy Airport. Two hall of famers who could have brought us championships down the drain. He lobbied for Brian Mahoney to replace him. It goes on and on.
Looie had what Mullin had. Both were great faces of the program...two men we could be proud of...but not great coaches.


For some reason we had attendance that we haven’t seen in years last season. I guess Mullin had nothing to do with that.....
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Off Season Tidbits 5 months 6 days ago #351967

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Off Season Tidbits 5 months 6 days ago #351969

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newsman13 wrote: Mullin the worst coach?

Yes, worst coach. Wasn't an X's and O's guy. Wasn't a competent recruiter. Didn't outwork the other guys. Wasn't a CEO head coach who built a staff to cover his shortcomings. Other than being named Chris Mullin, had ZERO redeemable qualities that you would look for in a HC. ZERO.

Hard to be worse than that...

newsman13 wrote: This from someone who went kicking and screaming off the Norm bandwagon. Maybe this is redemption.

Poppycock. My stance on Norm as a HC never changed. I felt that he was a reach, but deserved 4 years to turn things around. At which point my opinion was that he needed to go.
That's the same 4 years I gave Mullin by the way, before forming an onion about his tenure and abilities as a HC and suggesting he was in over his head and should be replaced..

newsman13 wrote: was a great face of the program.

Yes, very handsome. And yet that didn't make him a good coach. How can that be???

newsman13 wrote: He made us proud to root for his teams.

How did he do that? I think the only time I wasn't proud to root for this team was the end of the Jarvis error. For obvious reasons. Even with Norm, who was over-matched in the job, at least the effort was there by the staff and players. As a fan, I can be proud of that. I don't require a figurehead, or national titles to be proud of the program. If you and others do, that's your issue. Don't project it onto the rest of us.

newsman13 wrote: He took a team that was in the toilet to the NCAA tournament.

That's just false. Mullin took over a team that lost to San Diego St in the NCAA tournament 10 days before he was hired.
Then it took him 4 years to get them back there.
Taking over a team that was "in the toilet" is what Norm Roberts did. He inherited a team that was coming off a 6-21 (1-15) season, had been involved in a prostitution scandal on a road trip that cost Jarvis his job and was facing penalties for paying Abe Keita to be an awful back up player.

newsman13 wrote: Was he the greatest coach? That's not the argument. Let's not go through the litany of "misdeeds" again. There's no way he was the worst.

We weren't discussing whether he was the greatest coach. That's a laughable suggestion. We were debating whether he was the worst. So far your defense of my claim that he was has been:
- That I was some sort of Norm uber fan.
- He is pretty
- He made you proud to root for the team
- He inherited a bad situation (he didn't)
- and, that nobody is suggesting he was a great coach...(so that doesn't make him the worst?)

newsman13 wrote: If there was an internet back in the day, maybe Carnesecca would have qualified as the worst. He fought tooth and nail against the Redmen joining the Big East. He cemented the program into the mediocrity it is today. He cemented the fates of those who followed him, including Anderson. Come on. We go to the final four (once) and all he could recruit the following year was Marco Baldi (who had eligibility issues). He rescinded Gary Payton's scholarship in favor of someone named Broadnax. He left Akeem Olajuwon who wanted to come here waiting at Kennedy Airport. Two hall of famers who could have brought us championships down the drain. He lobbied for Brian Mahoney to replace him. It goes on and on.

If you had led with this nonsense you could have saved me the effort of responding to this horsecrap.

newsman13 wrote: Looie had what Mullin had. Both were great faces of the program...two men we could be proud of...but not great coaches.

yeah...they were identical twins separated at birth. Except that Lou is a Hall of Fame head coach with a long, storied career filled with many highs and lows, and Mullin was an all-time great player who was an embarrassment as a HC. Virtually no daylight between their two careers coaching at St John's...none.
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