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TOPIC: SHAMORI PONDS DRAFT PROJECTION & SIMON ???

SHAMORI PONDS DRAFT PROJECTION & SIMON ??? 7 months 3 days ago #347573

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MarkRedman wrote:

bamafan wrote: SJU85 said: True about him sitting on the bench rooting for the other team only it was Goodwin who replaced him joining a starting five of Mckoy, Gilroy, Russell and Washington (who had taken over for Garrison).



George Garrison was a high school teammate of David Russell which I have to believe is the only reason he played for St. John's. He is the only D1, 2, 3, NAIA and JUCO player in history that I could have replaced. :silly: :lol:


I wouldn't go that far. George was a very good high school player at Bellport. I coached in Suffolk County at the time that they played high school ball. Yes, he played with David in high school and it was strongly rumored that St John's gave George a scholarship in order to get David. But George was not a slouch and, while he wasn't a BE caliber player, he could have played at a lower level D-1 program.

When big time D-1 teams empty their benches, the assumption is that the guys coming into the game for the first time are "scrubs". At big time schools, the guys on the end of the bench were generally All League, All County, etc players who opted to sit the bench at a big time program instead of playing at a less heralded school. But, make no mistake, these kids have ability and can play.[/quote]
Was obviously using hyperbole but what was so frustrating about GG was all he ever did on offense is stay on the perimeter in the middle of the floor and reverse the ball. Never tried to penetrate never passed the ball inside which is why I facetiously said I could have replaced him. Not doubt he was a good HS player.

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SHAMORI PONDS DRAFT PROJECTION & SIMON ??? 7 months 3 days ago #347574

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Paul Massell wrote:

SLYFOXX1968 wrote: I would cut Ponds a lot of slack here . ...Anyway , Ponds should always be held to the esteem he deserved by his performance over3 years . He was a great one and we will miss his Talent greatly .


I agree with FOXX here. Ponds got criticized whatever he did. When he was taking over games he was a ball hog. This past season he did what he was told was what he needed to do: pass more and (try) to get his teammates more involved. He did that. He got criticized for not taking more shots! He also made a lot of plays to give his teammates open shots - which they missed. He also played 2 years being double and triple teamed and put up big numbers for three years without a legitimate big man - EVER. He then went into his third year without any kind of legitimate big man which would have made his job as well as that of Heron, Simon and Clark, a lot easier. Had we had real options there on offense (not Owens on the perimeter or Yakwe fumbling great passes inside) this would have made our offense A LOT more efficient and we likely would have been a highly seeded team in the Tourney. For whatever reason that will be lost to history, the staff refused for 4 years to recruit a big man despite pretty much every fan on the planet knowing they needed options there and instead brought in Mikey Dixon. Not Ponds fault.


Some truth in what you say but a lot of convenient excuses IMO. At the end I judge any player by an eye test, by what I see. I don’t judge players on numbers or what their teammates do or don’t do. I am not here to dump on Ponds so my last word, I look at him as an underachieving player; not statistically but in maximizing his abilities to make his team better on both ends of the floor.

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SHAMORI PONDS DRAFT PROJECTION & SIMON ??? 7 months 3 days ago #347576

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Joe Donnelly wrote:

Room112 wrote: I'll be honest, and people here can disagree. But Ponds' second half this year was probably the most disappointed I've been in a player since I started rooting. I can't get on guys who give their all and just don't have the talent. Ponds is the opposite. He has all of the talent in the world, but just never seemed interested in committing. Extremely frustrating to watch play out. I believe I mentioned before, but he lack of effort and urgency made it appear like he had already signed a pro contract. Very puzzling.

Like I mentioned once before, it was no secret on campus that Ponds spent more time at McDonalds than on the practice floor. That is why he was completely GASSED the last month of the season.

. McDonald’s has tried hard to make their Menu more Health oriented and thus has contributed to their higher Earnings as reported yesterday ., Ponds was a Trained , in Shape Player tasked with doing everything for the Team , except hand out the Towels and shut off the lights in the Gym. He was a great Player for St John’s and it’s doubtful a few Big Macs hampered his performance . He played nearly 38 minutes a game all Season , rarely took a play off on the Court and if he wasn’t our Superman for the last 3 Years , he was pretty close . Hands down , Shamorie Ponds was our Best Player in the last 20 Years ! Applaud the Player he was . We may not see his like for a long time .

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SHAMORI PONDS DRAFT PROJECTION & SIMON ??? 7 months 3 days ago #347577

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Seems like from the Duke game through the end of season he was figured out. Double Ponds and force others to beat you. I think of Bronx Tale when I think of Ponds...the saddest thing in life is wasted talent. If Ponds had LJ's intangibles he would be a sure fire top 20 pick IMO. I was confused too, because he seemed uninterested in many games as his NBA stock was tanking post Duke. Harkless shined even against Duke and that helped his stock tremendously...think he dropped 30. Ponds will still go down as one of our best ever, just sad the crazy potential was never totally realized. Hopefully he gets guys who can train him into a longtime NBA player but he has to want it. Was hoping to see a lot more maturity out of a JR who knows there are NBA scouts watching.

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SHAMORI PONDS DRAFT PROJECTION & SIMON ??? 7 months 3 days ago #347578

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Logen wrote: Some truth in what you say but a lot of convenient excuses IMO. At the end I judge any player by an eye test, by what I see. I don’t judge players on numbers or what their teammates do or don’t do. I am not here to dump on Ponds so my last word, I look at him as a vastly underachieving player; not statistically but in maximizing his abilities to make his team better on both ends of the floor.


I think Ponds is one of those guys that is so subtle and intentionally understated that he's spent his life being underestimated. He realizes this and thrives on it and doesn't try to be prototypical including outward shows of things that you want to see (as a coach) like enthusiasm in various forms. So he is going to fail eye tests where other guys who have different personalities will be overrated for the same/inverse reason. When I was first really impressed with Ponds was watching him off the floor in a high school all star game. While other kids were hooting and enthusiastic, he was really serious and studying the other players.. Both are great but most people don't and can't appreciate people like that.
“Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.”
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SHAMORI PONDS DRAFT PROJECTION & SIMON ??? 7 months 3 days ago #347583

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Mike Zaun wrote: Seems like from the Duke game through the end of season he was figured out. Double Ponds and force others to beat you. I think of Bronx Tale when I think of Ponds...the saddest thing in life is wasted talent. If Ponds had LJ's intangibles he would be a sure fire top 20 pick IMO. I was confused too, because he seemed uninterested in many games as his NBA stock was tanking post Duke. Harkless shined even against Duke and that helped his stock tremendously...think he dropped 30. Ponds will still go down as one of our best ever, just sad the crazy potential was never totally realized. Hopefully he gets guys who can train him into a longtime NBA player but he has to want it. Was hoping to see a lot more maturity out of a JR who knows there are NBA scouts watching.

. Frankly , Mike, you don’t know what you are talking about . Who designated you as the determinator of Ponds game and ability ? I think he excelled at a high level , was always a team player and actually sacrificed his game for the good of the Team . Many Athletes don’t need to express their emotions on the Court or Field . His potential , long term will soon be assessed by Scouts , soon enough . Mullin , despite your dislike for him , openly stated Ponds was better than many Players already in the League . Hardly seems like unrealized potential to me . Scouts last year said he needed to improve on his Assists and he did , often to his Scoring stats detriment . Ponds did everything asked of him to make his Teammates better this Year , unfortunately many times they weren’t up to it . Judging his performance the way you have is a cheap shot as it implies Ponds didn’t produce to your satisfaction , I once saw Chris Mullin score 40 points against Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen . They didn’t stop him . Ponds could have played more like Markus Howard this year and been all in for his own Stats but , he didn’t ! If that means he didn’t realize his potential , then you can continue your side swipes all summer . Shamorie might have hurt his NBA chances more for being not selfish than anything you suggest he didn’t do .
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SHAMORI PONDS DRAFT PROJECTION & SIMON ??? 7 months 3 days ago #347594

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Logen wrote:

Paul Massell wrote:

SLYFOXX1968 wrote: I would cut Ponds a lot of slack here . ...Anyway , Ponds should always be held to the esteem he deserved by his performance over3 years . He was a great one and we will miss his Talent greatly .


I agree with FOXX here. Ponds got criticized whatever he did. When he was taking over games he was a ball hog. This past season he did what he was told was what he needed to do: pass more and (try) to get his teammates more involved. He did that. He got criticized for not taking more shots! He also made a lot of plays to give his teammates open shots - which they missed. He also played 2 years being double and triple teamed and put up big numbers for three years without a legitimate big man - EVER. He then went into his third year without any kind of legitimate big man which would have made his job as well as that of Heron, Simon and Clark, a lot easier. Had we had real options there on offense (not Owens on the perimeter or Yakwe fumbling great passes inside) this would have made our offense A LOT more efficient and we likely would have been a highly seeded team in the Tourney. For whatever reason that will be lost to history, the staff refused for 4 years to recruit a big man despite pretty much every fan on the planet knowing they needed options there and instead brought in Mikey Dixon. Not Ponds fault.


Some truth in what you say but a lot of convenient excuses IMO. At the end I judge any player by an eye test, by what I see. I don’t judge players on numbers or what their teammates do or don’t do. I am not here to dump on Ponds so my last word, I look at him as an underachieving player; not statistically but in maximizing his abilities to make his team better on both ends of the floor.


I get both sides of the discussion. But like you said. Eye test. There seemed to be a clear lack of desire and urgency. Most of the time he looked too cool for school. Yes he did an excellent job of getting his team involved. But in the 2nd half he did this to a fault. It was to the point he refused to even look for or take a shot. Just strange.

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SHAMORI PONDS DRAFT PROJECTION & SIMON ??? 7 months 3 days ago #347595

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Mike Zaun wrote: Seems like from the Duke game through the end of season he was figured out. Double Ponds and force others to beat you. I think of Bronx Tale when I think of Ponds...the saddest thing in life is wasted talent. If Ponds had LJ's intangibles he would be a sure fire top 20 pick IMO. I was confused too, because he seemed uninterested in many games as his NBA stock was tanking post Duke. Harkless shined even against Duke and that helped his stock tremendously...think he dropped 30. Ponds will still go down as one of our best ever, just sad the crazy potential was never totally realized. Hopefully he gets guys who can train him into a longtime NBA player but he has to want it. Was hoping to see a lot more maturity out of a JR who knows there are NBA scouts watching.


Even with all of the criticism I'm sending his way I would never go so far to say he's wasted potential. He's easily one of the greats who've played at St John's. One of the greatest scorers we've ever had.

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SHAMORI PONDS DRAFT PROJECTION & SIMON ??? 7 months 3 days ago #347601

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Room112 wrote:

Mike Zaun wrote: Seems like from the Duke game through the end of season he was figured out. Double Ponds and force others to beat you. I think of Bronx Tale when I think of Ponds...the saddest thing in life is wasted talent. If Ponds had LJ's intangibles he would be a sure fire top 20 pick IMO. I was confused too, because he seemed uninterested in many games as his NBA stock was tanking post Duke. Harkless shined even against Duke and that helped his stock tremendously...think he dropped 30. Ponds will still go down as one of our best ever, just sad the crazy potential was never totally realized. Hopefully he gets guys who can train him into a longtime NBA player but he has to want it. Was hoping to see a lot more maturity out of a JR who knows there are NBA scouts watching.


Even with all of the criticism I'm sending his way I would never go so far to say he's wasted potential. He's easily one of the greats who've played at St John's. One of the greatest scorers we've ever had.


I would say in his defense, that when his teammates stopped making wide open looks, teams challenged them to shoot and keyed on Ponds. He did try to do it both ways - being patient and taking only a couple of shots in a half, and also forcing the action, shooting over a zone, or driving on a bunch of guys without getting the call. IT could very well be that he realizes that without a stronger supporting cast at St. John's, not that there is nothing to prove, but that he won't be able to prove it.

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SHAMORI PONDS DRAFT PROJECTION & SIMON ??? 7 months 3 days ago #347605

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SLYFOXX1968 wrote:

Mike Zaun wrote: Seems like from the Duke game through the end of season he was figured out. Double Ponds and force others to beat you. I think of Bronx Tale when I think of Ponds...the saddest thing in life is wasted talent. If Ponds had LJ's intangibles he would be a sure fire top 20 pick IMO. I was confused too, because he seemed uninterested in many games as his NBA stock was tanking post Duke. Harkless shined even against Duke and that helped his stock tremendously...think he dropped 30. Ponds will still go down as one of our best ever, just sad the crazy potential was never totally realized. Hopefully he gets guys who can train him into a longtime NBA player but he has to want it. Was hoping to see a lot more maturity out of a JR who knows there are NBA scouts watching.

. Frankly , Mike, you don’t know what you are talking about . Who designated you as the determinator of Ponds game and ability ? I think he excelled at a high level , was always a team player and actually sacrificed his game for the good of the Team . Many Athletes don’t need to express their emotions on the Court or Field . His potential , long term will soon be assessed by Scouts , soon enough . Mullin , despite your dislike for him , openly stated Ponds was better than many Players already in the League . Hardly seems like unrealized potential to me . Scouts last year said he needed to improve on his Assists and he did , often to his Scoring stats detriment . Ponds did everything asked of him to make his Teammates better this Year , unfortunately many times they weren’t up to it . Judging his performance the way you have is a cheap shot as it implies Ponds didn’t produce to your satisfaction , I once saw Chris Mullin score 40 points against Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen . They didn’t stop him . Ponds could have played more like Markus Howard this year and been all in for his own Stats but , he didn’t ! If that means he didn’t realize his potential , then you can continue your side swipes all summer . Shamorie might have hurt his NBA chances more for being not selfish than anything you suggest he didn’t do .


Sly, if you think I'm one of the most biased on one extreme, you are the clear extreme on the other side e.g. Mullin can do no wrong and Ponds is perfect. I've noticed a huge difference between two clear cut factions on this forum. 1 faction of fans roots like hell for the program, however we realize we can also critique our own players and program when it's deserved. The other faction of fans also roots like hell for the program, however they are in their own bubble and only want to wear rose colored shades in fantasy land. The way the nation in general viewed coach Mullin and Ponds is not the same way you do. Mullin almost never recruited and treated this like a hobby, but in your fantasy land he was just dandy. The biggest mistake your faction makes is not being able to separate emotions from facts. I don't dislike Mullin the person, I dislike the results. We are fans of a major program...there are going to be plenty of critiques and they are allowed whether or not you want them. I just refuse to purposely blind myself in fantasy...I go off the actual results and what I see. Ponds is a very talented player but he could never shoot close to Howard and he looked like he was just trying to impress NBA scouts taking himself off the scoring role and passing to rack up assists even when he had good looks. His immaturity is also not an opinion but a fact with several examples. Does that mean I hate everyone? No. At the end of the day, there's a reason Mullin was denied an extension and there's a reason Ponds only has a chance late in the 2nd round at best. Just being real.
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