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TOPIC: Defensive effort

Defensive effort 1 week 1 day ago #306757

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Moose wrote:

we are sju wrote:

Moose wrote:

we are sju wrote: If we don't make tourney this year experiment was failure and should end.
I will say this. No matter what happens I thought the last 2 years though frustrating at times, the teams were enjoyable to watch. Sorry to keep bringing it back to Norm but he was really the only coach here who I absolutely wanted to be fired. His teams were bad and terrible to watch. Don't find that with Mullin even if the results have not been great.


Were you a fan of SJU when Mullin played?


Friend of my Father's sat the bench for Louie in the 70's.
Got us tickets to see this awesome Freshman play when I was like 9 or 10.
Left Alumni Hall as the biggest David Russell fan. The freshman guy bored 9 or 10 year old WASJU.
As I got older and understood basketball a little bit more I soon realized how great Chris Mullin was. Was really cool seeing:
1. ST John's at top of polls.
True disclosure liked Walter Berry more. But even back then I understood this program would never see a player like Mullin ever again. Though I think I can say that about Berry too.


I get it. He was part of those teams that were special to you. And an integral part. I don't fault anyone for feeling how they do about Mullin. Just wish more of those fans didn't fault others who have no affinity to Chris Mullin at all. We don't pick the year we're born


Yes that is a big part of it.
But by same token I never really saw Tom Seaver pitch for the Mets (saw when he came back in 83) but I think I would give him more leeway than I would Mickey Calloway. Maybe just me.
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Defensive effort 1 week 1 day ago #306758

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Marillac wrote: I think we would have been on the bubble last year if Lovett didn't screw us over. I also think the staff learned a lesson there. Next year the team will be a tournament team IMO and the finally balanced roster should be able to keep the inertia going in a positive direction. It's a lot easier to stay good than become good.


You mean with Heron I presume. Because otherwise

PG- Mack
SG- Dixon/Wright
SF- Simon/Williams
PF- LJ
C- Steere/Keita

That's not a tournament team
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Defensive effort 1 week 1 day ago #306759

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Redmen88 wrote: I think the defensive effort has been falling short this year but will give the team the benefit of the doubt until SK returns. Right now they are doubling down on the big man every time and having to rotate quickly. This results in open shots frequently. What does our D look like without having to double the post every time? If we still look bad once SK returns than the D needs to really step up in conference play. You need to sit down all of the players and let them know that if you don't play D than you sit. Yank them quickly and put them back in quickly until it is improves. Run their asses off in practice until the D improves. D is all effort and coach should not be satisfied without 100% effort.

Since Mullin's offense is perimeter oriented and likes the 3 ball with little to no use of bigs and a post up game why on defense would he be so concerned at doubling the post at the expense of giving up open 3 point shots especially against the quality of teams and bigs we have faced so far?
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Defensive effort 1 week 1 day ago #306762

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fordham96 wrote: I can tell you this. Nostalgia wears off really quickly.

That only gets you so far before results start to matter.

Fred Hoiberg was successful at Iowa St not because he was a grad but because he won. And he turned that thing around quickly. I mean Doug McDermott is a terrific well regarded coach and in 4 years at Iowa St he compiled the below record of NO WINNING SEASONS. By year 2 Hoiberg had Iowa St a non-traditional power in the NCAA's and that led to 4 consecutive seasons in the NCAA's before leaving for the Bulls.

2006–07 Iowa State 15–16 6–10 T–7th
2007–08 Iowa State 14–18 4–12 11th
2008–09 Iowa State 15–17 4–12 10th
2009–10 Iowa State 15–17 4–12


Hoiberg inherited a relatively full roster including the future Big 12 POY, Melvin Ejim, as a rising sophomore and a SG that averaged 13 pts his first two seasons for Hoiberg.

Mullin inherited AA and Christian Jones. It's not a fair comparison.

Also, Hoiberg took a huge risk with Royce White and that almost certainly would have backfired if White was with the program more than a year judging by his well documented mental illness and conduct after that season.

If Mullin started with Ejim and Hooberg's roster we would have danced Ponds' freshman season.

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Last edit: by Marillac.

Defensive effort 1 week 1 day ago #306763

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Moose wrote:

Marillac wrote: I think we would have been on the bubble last year if Lovett didn't screw us over. I also think the staff learned a lesson there. Next year the team will be a tournament team IMO and the finally balanced roster should be able to keep the inertia going in a positive direction. It's a lot easier to stay good than become good.


You mean with Heron I presume. Because otherwise

PG- Mack
SG- Dixon/Wright
SF- Simon/Williams
PF- LJ
C- Steere/Keita

That's not a tournament team


Yes, I believe Heron will stay. He took the risk of sitting out this year and he's not really on the radar for the NBA in a deep SG/SF class. He would benefit by being the man next season and showing more playmaking ability.

Mack
Heron
Simon
Figueroa
Keita

That's a nice starting 5 and Wright, Dixon, Caraher, Williams, Trimble, Roberts, and Steere is a great bench.

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Defensive effort 1 week 1 day ago #306765

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Marillac wrote:

Moose wrote:

Marillac wrote: I think we would have been on the bubble last year if Lovett didn't screw us over. I also think the staff learned a lesson there. Next year the team will be a tournament team IMO and the finally balanced roster should be able to keep the inertia going in a positive direction. It's a lot easier to stay good than become good.


You mean with Heron I presume. Because otherwise

PG- Mack
SG- Dixon/Wright
SF- Simon/Williams
PF- LJ
C- Steere/Keita

That's not a tournament team


Yes, I believe Heron will stay. He took the risk of sitting out this year and he's not really on the radar for the NBA in a deep SG/SF class. He would benefit by being the man next season and showing more playmaking ability.

Mack
Heron
Simon
Figueroa
Keita

That's a nice starting 5 and Wright, Dixon, Caraher, Williams, Trimble, Roberts, and Steere is a great bench.


If he stays I can't disagree.

I also put Simon on there but as we know he does have an option.

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Defensive effort 1 week 1 day ago #306766

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Moose wrote:

we are sju wrote:

Moose wrote:

we are sju wrote: If we don't make tourney this year experiment was failure and should end.
I will say this. No matter what happens I thought the last 2 years though frustrating at times, the teams were enjoyable to watch. Sorry to keep bringing it back to Norm but he was really the only coach here who I absolutely wanted to be fired. His teams were bad and terrible to watch. Don't find that with Mullin even if the results have not been great.


Were you a fan of SJU when Mullin played?


Friend of my Father's sat the bench for Louie in the 70's.
Got us tickets to see this awesome Freshman play when I was like 9 or 10.
Left Alumni Hall as the biggest David Russell fan. The freshman guy bored 9 or 10 year old WASJU.
As I got older and understood basketball a little bit more I soon realized how great Chris Mullin was. Was really cool seeing:
1. ST John's at top of polls.
True disclosure liked Walter Berry more. But even back then I understood this program would never see a player like Mullin ever again. Though I think I can say that about Berry too.


I get it. He was part of those teams that were special to you. And an integral part. I don't fault anyone for feeling how they do about Mullin. Just wish more of those fans didn't fault others who have no affinity to Chris Mullin at all. We don't pick the year we're born


Thanks Moose - and others of like or different mind
I recall being in Alumni Hall for one of Mullin's first freshman year games and I think he scored about 14 - but we new he was special.
But one does not have to have seen Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig play to be an avid Yankee fan. Nor does one have had to be there for the Chris Mullin, Bill Wennington, Mark Jackson, Jeff Allen, et al - .Willie Glass, Ron Stewart, Billy Goodwin, Walter B.and many others...You can feel for a team no matter when you began to be a fan of that team. You can savor the history...no matter your age.

Maybe there's a parallel between politics and St. Johns now - left and right and nothing in the middle - painting people as one dimensional...
but we can find middle ground and some posters do - between things are wonderful through the season is already a disaster and SJU should drop out of Div 1 sports. And keep perspective that this in only college basketball and not more important facets of life such as our kids, jobs, health, friends...

Most here are fans. Most if not all here want to see Chris Mullin, his staff and this current team succeed. Most appreciate that anything of value takes time - and as on poster recently wrote - it may be easier to maintain success (e.g. Duke) than to create it in the first place. We unfortunately are in the latter category and CM inherited NOTHING and it's taking time to make the progress we all desire.

I think Chris Mullin (I like and appreciate all that he has done throughout his entire successful career from high school onward) is capable of bringing us back to the big time. But it will take time and have some rises and falls. How patient will we be? Well for those already ready for a change in a mere few years since April 2015 - when we were all happy that CM took the reins - I ask where is there a better coach and staff to be found? What is a better alternative than to stick to our current program, staff, new AD and allow it to play out FOR THE LONG RUN.

What is a better alternative?
It is always easier to critique, complain whatever you want to call it - than to build, support, endure and keep perspective. We all know too well we have been through Brian Mahoney (whom I liked), Norm Roberts (a very decent guy but like a football coach better suited as a coordinator than a head coach), Jarvis (I found caustic), Franschilla who could recruit but had his peculiarities...Lavin etc.

Do we really need another change in regime?

I have posted before about my fellow WP alum Mike K and his early "brutal" years when loyal Duke folks wanted him out - he was a nobody from nowhere. Of course what brilliance that Duke powers endured and waited longer to see...and the Duke corner (with Johnny Dawkins and improved recruits) did eventually turn for the better. Interestingly, one recruit Mike K missed out on was our own Chris Mullin.

I believe I am one of the optimistic pro-Mullin camp members BUT as many in this camp I am neither blind nor unaware of our shortcomings - AND as many in this camp, I can't stand to lose, I can't stand to see SJU out of the top twenty etc. It stinks...but I am wise enough (old enough lol) to know change might be the easiest answer but not necessarily the best.

Speaking of the "best," all the best to you, to those who agree with me, to those who don't - for a very nice and decent December 2018!!! Happy Holidays guys and gals.

Blessings.
SS&G
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Defensive effort 1 week 1 day ago #306767

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Getting back to the defensive effort I believe a portion revolves around many of our players being very "cautious" on defense as we do not have a deep bench and several are not used to covering on the perimeter at this level. I would expect this to improve with practice, Kieta returning and best of all game experience.

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Defensive effort 1 week 1 day ago #306768

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Moose wrote:

Marillac wrote:

Moose wrote:

Marillac wrote: I think we would have been on the bubble last year if Lovett didn't screw us over. I also think the staff learned a lesson there. Next year the team will be a tournament team IMO and the finally balanced roster should be able to keep the inertia going in a positive direction. It's a lot easier to stay good than become good.


You mean with Heron I presume. Because otherwise

PG- Mack
SG- Dixon/Wright
SF- Simon/Williams
PF- LJ
C- Steere/Keita

That's not a tournament team


Yes, I believe Heron will stay. He took the risk of sitting out this year and he's not really on the radar for the NBA in a deep SG/SF class. He would benefit by being the man next season and showing more playmaking ability.

Mack
Heron
Simon
Figueroa
Keita

That's a nice starting 5 and Wright, Dixon, Caraher, Williams, Trimble, Roberts, and Steere is a great bench.


If he stays I can't disagree.

I also put Simon on there but as we know he does have an option.


That is true. I'd have a meeting with him, Heron, and Ponds after the season naming them captains, encouraging them to seek evaluation from the NBA, and laying out the plan for 2020.

I don't think Heron gets an invite to the combine and therefore will be back. Simon will have more play-making opportunities with Ponds gone and a soph PG projected to start.

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Defensive effort 1 week 1 day ago #306772

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bamafan wrote:

Redmen88 wrote: I think the defensive effort has been falling short this year but will give the team the benefit of the doubt until SK returns. Right now they are doubling down on the big man every time and having to rotate quickly. This results in open shots frequently. What does our D look like without having to double the post every time? If we still look bad once SK returns than the D needs to really step up in conference play. You need to sit down all of the players and let them know that if you don't play D than you sit. Yank them quickly and put them back in quickly until it is improves. Run their asses off in practice until the D improves. D is all effort and coach should not be satisfied without 100% effort.

Since Mullin's offense is perimeter oriented and likes the 3 ball with little to no use of bigs and a post up game why on defense would he be so concerned at doubling the post at the expense of giving up open 3 point shots especially against the quality of teams and bigs we have faced so far?


Again I think a lot of the issue is there just does not seem to be any awareness or urgency on the closeouts by the players, but you do raise a very valid point. Defense against Gtown should not just be the defense we play against teams that have no low post presence. And honestly how many great low post players are around would rather give up contested 2 then uncontested 3

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