Welcome, Guest
Username: Password: Remember me

TOPIC: Defensive Doldrums

Defensive Doldrums 1 month 2 weeks ago #238561

  • docbutler
  • docbutler's Avatar
  • NOW ONLINE
  • Junior Boarder
  • Posts: 61
  • Thank you received: 94
  • Karma: 8
There are so many issues in the way this St. John's team plays basketball, it's hard to find the time to list them all. But let's start with the elephant in the room...abysmal defense.There is simply no way for this team to win against quality opponents when they continually allow so many points to be scored against them. Creighton had a 50+  half this week...and now Xavier scores 97 for the game? That is awful.....in any man's league. It is completely puzzling that Chris Mullin and his staff apparently don't understand that. I say that because I see nothing whatsoever that indicates any inclination to do try anything different. Each game is pretty much a carbon copy of the one before it, and they trudge along playing a predictable and unimaginative man-to-man. Every team in the BIG EAST knows exactly where our liabilities lie with regard to defense. And while both Creighton and Xavier, to their credit.....
both shot it pretty well from range, this observer doesn't see that as the major problem. Our ridiculously porous defense is probably up there among Div. I teams in allowing dunks and lay-ups. There is a complete lack of understanding of real "help" defense...a must if you are going to play man-to-man, and in doing so, keep people out of the paint.  Sometimes they switch correctly, and many times they do not. We play much too far out...given the inability of our players to stay in front of their men. They screw up pick and role defense and they switch poorly....making far too many mistakes. Their hands aren't active enough. When Muscini comes into the game they head right at him. Ellison can't stop an old man in a wheelchair without fouling. Yakwe spends too much time soaring and not enough time gaining good defensive position. Williams apparently was a flash in the pan, because he has been dreadful in the last two games. Both Alibegovic and Freudenberg are hopelessly slow afoot, and both are horrible defensive liabilities. This team should not be playing man-to-man to begin with. We should pack it in and prevent penetration in the lanes. Chris needs to read some books by Jack Craft and Roly Massimino...and get a good rotating zone...a zone with shooter awareness in place. We'll probably still get drilled from the perimeter,
but I would rather we take our chances. At least, in that way, we could help stop being annihilated on our defensive boards. We are absolutely getting killed inside...with lay-up after lay-up....dunk after dunk. Also, loose balls...have you ever seen a team that functioned worse at picking them up? Many teams work on that...do we? Last, but not least, Ahmed. Good lord...Inside sources had told me told me that he would beour best player. Comparisons were made to "Jimmy Butler" of the Bulls. Unfortunately, "Jeeves the butler" would be a more suitable comparison....he is consistently awful...most of all with his on-court judgement!. Still...this team can score some points. Now we have to learn to get stops. Giving teams 80+ points per game can never spell anything other than disaster!
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Defensive Doldrums 1 month 2 weeks ago #238564

  • usguard
  • usguard's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Expert Boarder
  • Posts: 2975
  • Thank you received: 508
  • Karma: -173
docbutler wrote:
There are so many issues in the way this St. John's team plays basketball, it's hard to find the time to list them all. But let's start with the elephant in the room...abysmal defense.There is simply no way for this team to win against quality opponents when they continually allow so many points to be scored against them. Creighton had a 50+  half this week...and now Xavier scores 97 for the game? That is awful.....in any man's league. It is completely puzzling that Chris Mullin and his staff apparently don't understand that. I say that because I see nothing whatsoever that indicates any inclination to do try anything different. Each game is pretty much a carbon copy of the one before it, and they trudge along playing a predictable and unimaginative man-to-man. Every team in the BIG EAST knows exactly where our liabilities lie with regard to defense. And while both Creighton and Xavier, to their credit.....
both shot it pretty well from range, this observer doesn't see that as the major problem. Our ridiculously porous defense is probably up there among Div. I teams in allowing dunks and lay-ups. There is a complete lack of understanding of real "help" defense...a must if you are going to play man-to-man, and in doing so, keep people out of the paint.  Sometimes they switch correctly, and many times they do not. We play much too far out...given the inability of our players to stay in front of their men. They screw up pick and role defense and they switch poorly....making far too many mistakes. Their hands aren't active enough. When Muscini comes into the game they head right at him. Ellison can't stop an old man in a wheelchair without fouling. Yakwe spends too much time soaring and not enough time gaining good defensive position. Williams apparently was a flash in the pan, because he has been dreadful in the last two games. Both Alibegovic and Freudenberg are hopelessly slow afoot, and both are horrible defensive liabilities. This team should not be playing man-to-man to begin with. We should pack it in and prevent penetration in the lanes. Chris needs to read some books by Jack Craft and Roly Massimino...and get a good rotating zone...a zone with shooter awareness in place. We'll probably still get drilled from the perimeter,
but I would rather we take our chances. At least, in that way, we could help stop being annihilated on our defensive boards. We are absolutely getting killed inside...with lay-up after lay-up....dunk after dunk. Also, loose balls...have you ever seen a team that functioned worse at picking them up? Many teams work on that...do we? Last, but not least, Ahmed. Good lord...Inside sources had told me told me that he would beour best player. Comparisons were made to "Jimmy Butler" of the Bulls. Unfortunately, "Jeeves the butler" would be a more suitable comparison....he is consistently awful...most of all with his on-court judgement!. Still...this team can score some points. Now we have to learn to get stops. Giving teams 80+ points per game can never spell anything other than disaster!

Pretty much says it all.Only thing I would add is did we really recruit Div 1 talent perhaps when we finally do we will begin to see wins.I for one never expect a win now since to do so we have to shoot great and any team we play has to play bad We all just have to bare it for now It has to get better
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Defensive Doldrums 1 month 2 weeks ago #238585

  • cappy105
  • cappy105's Avatar
  • NOW ONLINE
  • Expert Boarder
  • Posts: 786
  • Thank you received: 326
  • Karma: 17
1 vote for zone. Need to play zone with Gtown at the very least
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Defensive Doldrums 1 month 2 weeks ago #238594

  • MarkRedman
  • MarkRedman's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Expert Boarder
  • Posts: 2453
  • Thank you received: 1315
  • Karma: 24
Don't forget that CM was not a good defensive player in college either
He was a "roamer" - he went for steals at the risk of often leaving his man alone
I do agree that we should play more zone
Maybe even try Looie's "ambush" defense - a 1-3-1 half court trap to mix it up
I fondly remember Looie crossing his arms into an "X" to signify the half court trap
It was very effective as a change of pace defense and often led to steals & easy hoops
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Defensive Doldrums 1 month 2 weeks ago #238595

  • Eric
  • Eric's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Senior Boarder
  • Posts: 195
  • Thank you received: 87
  • Karma: 5
when we win our defense plays better....against Syracuse, butler and DePaul.....so we have it in us to play better defense....we just need to bring it every game all the time....that seems to be the big problem.....and don't tell me Syracuse is not the same Syracuse team...I know they are not but they just man handled a pitt team that won AT Virginia
Last Edit: 1 month 2 weeks ago by Eric.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Defensive Doldrums 1 month 2 weeks ago #238597

  • MarkRedman
  • MarkRedman's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Expert Boarder
  • Posts: 2453
  • Thank you received: 1315
  • Karma: 24
In addition to playing better individual and team defense, we tend to win when we share the ball on offense instead of everybody trying to go one on one. One recent game that we won, we had 27 assists on 34 made baskets. That's what wins games - playing team ball on both sides of the court. We show flashes of being able to do it but just don't do it consistently enough just yet.
Last Edit: 1 month 2 weeks ago by MarkRedman.
The administrator has disabled public write access.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Eric

Defensive Doldrums 1 month 2 weeks ago #238599

  • OLV72
  • OLV72's Avatar
  • NOW ONLINE
  • Expert Boarder
  • Posts: 950
  • Thank you received: 671
  • Karma: 21
usguard wrote:
docbutler wrote:
There are so many issues in the way this St. John's team plays basketball, it's hard to find the time to list them all. But let's start with the elephant in the room...abysmal defense.There is simply no way for this team to win against quality opponents when they continually allow so many points to be scored against them. Creighton had a 50+  half this week...and now Xavier scores 97 for the game? That is awful.....in any man's league. It is completely puzzling that Chris Mullin and his staff apparently don't understand that. I say that because I see nothing whatsoever that indicates any inclination to do try anything different. Each game is pretty much a carbon copy of the one before it, and they trudge along playing a predictable and unimaginative man-to-man. Every team in the BIG EAST knows exactly where our liabilities lie with regard to defense. And while both Creighton and Xavier, to their credit.....
both shot it pretty well from range, this observer doesn't see that as the major problem. Our ridiculously porous defense is probably up there among Div. I teams in allowing dunks and lay-ups. There is a complete lack of understanding of real "help" defense...a must if you are going to play man-to-man, and in doing so, keep people out of the paint.  Sometimes they switch correctly, and many times they do not. We play much too far out...given the inability of our players to stay in front of their men. They screw up pick and role defense and they switch poorly....making far too many mistakes. Their hands aren't active enough. When Muscini comes into the game they head right at him. Ellison can't stop an old man in a wheelchair without fouling. Yakwe spends too much time soaring and not enough time gaining good defensive position. Williams apparently was a flash in the pan, because he has been dreadful in the last two games. Both Alibegovic and Freudenberg are hopelessly slow afoot, and both are horrible defensive liabilities. This team should not be playing man-to-man to begin with. We should pack it in and prevent penetration in the lanes. Chris needs to read some books by Jack Craft and Roly Massimino...and get a good rotating zone...a zone with shooter awareness in place. We'll probably still get drilled from the perimeter,
but I would rather we take our chances. At least, in that way, we could help stop being annihilated on our defensive boards. We are absolutely getting killed inside...with lay-up after lay-up....dunk after dunk. Also, loose balls...have you ever seen a team that functioned worse at picking them up? Many teams work on that...do we? Last, but not least, Ahmed. Good lord...Inside sources had told me told me that he would beour best player. Comparisons were made to "Jimmy Butler" of the Bulls. Unfortunately, "Jeeves the butler" would be a more suitable comparison....he is consistently awful...most of all with his on-court judgement!. Still...this team can score some points. Now we have to learn to get stops. Giving teams 80+ points per game can never spell anything other than disaster!

Pretty much says it all.Only thing I would add is did we really recruit Div 1 talent perhaps when we finally do we will begin to see wins.I for one never expect a win now since to do so we have to shoot great and any team we play has to play bad We all just have to bare it for now It has to get better

Slice, don't you have better things to do than reading and posting on a message board?
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Defensive Doldrums 1 month 2 weeks ago #238610

  • Beast of the East
  • Beast of the East's Avatar
  • NOW ONLINE
  • Gold Boarder
  • Posts: 8087
  • Thank you received: 4988
  • Karma: -587
MarkRedman wrote:
Don't forget that CM was not a good defensive player in college either
He was a "roamer" - he went for steals at the risk of often leaving his man alone
I do agree that we should play more zone
Maybe even try Looie's "ambush" defense - a 1-3-1 half court trap to mix it up
I fondly remember Looie crossing his arms into an "X" to signify the half court trap
It was very effective as a change of pace defense and often led to steals & easy hoops

Mullin did not get chewed up on defense. He did average a surprising 4.1 rebounds per game. You are correct that he had a lot of steals but it wasn't by not playing defense, it was by reading the passing lanes extremely well and anticipating cross court passes and also by doubling down on big men and stealing it from behind. Even in the NBA he was always among the leaders in steals.

IMO Mullin's steals numbers were not related to playing poor defense (unlike the subject of blocks being discussed in another thread). It was a result of rock solid, heady basketball where he could sneak up from behind when doubling down low, and reading the passing lanes and anticipating really well, usually when he defended on the weak side.

On the subject of our defense, this team just sucks at it. Guys jog slowly after the ball when the other team breaks, which would earn a long rest on the bench in my book. Guys avoid challenging opponents who have wide open paths to the hoops - I'm in favor of Charles Oakley welcomes when a foul earned makes opponents think twice about slams and hangs on the rims. Defense is 90% effort, and our guys play like they don't want to get into foul trouble so their stats look good. In bball there are few individual stats that show crappy defense, and maybe the team can hire a few student interns to track some stuff, subjective as it may be.
Last Edit: 1 month 2 weeks ago by Beast of the East.
The administrator has disabled public write access.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Paul Massell, McGarry2, Paultzman, Andrew2

Defensive Doldrums 1 month 2 weeks ago #238612

  • Paultzman
  • Paultzman's Avatar
  • NOW ONLINE
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Posts: 13940
  • Thank you received: 13645
  • Karma: 270
Beast of the East wrote:
MarkRedman wrote:
Don't forget that CM was not a good defensive player in college either
He was a "roamer" - he went for steals at the risk of often leaving his man alone
I do agree that we should play more zone
Maybe even try Looie's "ambush" defense - a 1-3-1 half court trap to mix it up
I fondly remember Looie crossing his arms into an "X" to signify the half court trap
It was very effective as a change of pace defense and often led to steals & easy hoops

Mullin did not get chewed up on defense. He did average a surprising 4.1 rebounds per game. You are correct that he had a lot of steals but it wasn't by not playing defense, it was by reading the passing lanes extremely well and anticipating cross court passes and also by doubling down on big men and stealing it from behind. Even in the NBA he was always among the leaders in steals.

IMO Mullin's steals numbers were not related to playing poor defense (unlike the subject of blocks being discussed in another thread). It was a result of rock solid, heady basketball where he could sneak up from behind when doubling down low, and reading the passing lanes and anticipating really well, usually when he defended on the weak side.

On the subject of our defense, this team just sucks at it. Guys jog slowly after the ball when the other team breaks, which would earn a long rest on the bench in my book. Guys avoid challenging opponents who have wide open paths to the hoops - I'm in favor of Charles Oakley welcomes when a foul earned makes opponents think twice about slams and hangs on the rims. Defense is 90% effort, and our guys play like they don't want to get into foul trouble so their stats look good. In bball there are few individual stats that show crappy defense, and maybe the team can hire a few student interns to track some stuff, subjective as it may be.

Agree Beast, the defensive mindset & commitment is poor. Re intern comment, Louisville has somebody tracking deflections regularly, even at practice apparently,
The administrator has disabled public write access.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Beast of the East
Time to create page: 0.689 seconds